They have mentioned going back and trimming things down. Unfortunately, that is no small undertaking. And while they should do so eventually, it means their budget is being allotted elsewhere instead of into new content. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer things I can do at current max level rather than the devs focus on content I've long since completed years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev
Even if/when they do reduce the amount of quests required, jump potions don't impact much. People who aren't interested in the story are going to skip it all anyway and powerlevel through PotD/HoH. Square may as well profit on it. Most who opt to do so are usually leveling an alt.
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09-08-2018, 03:01 AMBourne_Endeavor
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09-08-2018, 03:06 AMHestzhyenI wouldn't mind if they went back and did it. Honestly I enjoy so little of the content they've been putting out since SB that I wouldn't mind if some of it was abandoned to go back and make things better for newcomers. The slog was real when I did it as new content, I can only imagine how much worse it is when you have to do it back to back to back chasing that beautiful moment when you can finally go to Ishgard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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09-09-2018, 08:36 AMVoltyblast
I'm gonna reply one more time about the cash shop or else this will go off topic. Here goes.
Those Chinese and Korean items are the only exceptions I can think off because they were never legitimately in the game and the only way to obtain it was to be...well Korean or Chinese, they weren't exactly easy to obtain and while they could have given us for free - and they could if they cared - they decided for us to pay for them...okay, I can deal with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
However at its inception (27 of October 2014 to be exact) it mostly had few items from older events and I think the Sleipnir mount - Urth's Fount would be released in 2.5, making it just useless to re-run besides that crappy glamour - and it was "okay" because yes they could have given us those older event items for free - and they could, if they cared - but we have to pay few cents for those things again...fair enough.
But the more time passed the more focus was done on the cash shop, to the point that possible good incentives to re-run content were relegated to the cash shop instead of ingame which I also made a few examples.
This begs the question: is this an f2p MMORPG or what? A costume, even if cosmetic, costing more than a sub is just not fair and forcing us to rent additional retainers is just...do I have to say anything?
Your question is "so nothing has changed?" but with all the examples I gave, with all their focus on the shop, with everything they've added in the cash shop that could've been EASILY be applied to the game, do you still think nothing has changed? Maaaaybe things got worse? Or the fact we can pay 12 bucks for a SINGLE emote is just the same as before?
I might have to answer it straightforward or else mayhem will happen: the answer is "The cash shop got worse, so worse that it's essentially an f2p version of it. More straightforward than that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
PS: About the jumping potions you can compare them like in those trash games on the cell phone - such as candy crush - where you pay to proceed faster: sure you can go slower and wait God knows how long to clear all the 570 quests in order to unlock endgame (yes it's that many), or you can pay us to take out 422 of them and only bother with the remaining (as of now) 148 quests in order to play the actual game.
I call them pay to win, but you can call them "pay to progress faster", but it doesn't change the fact they just took advantage of the filler-riddled MSQ to sell potions instead of fixing it and make it flow better.
I do remember people saying it was about older items to be obtained but this is the thing: I didn't care at first because I had all the items in the cash shop, I did all events and I didn't bother spending a dime on those. When they first added the first batch of crap items that's when people got a bad feeling, as the white knights kept saying "IT'S ONLY COSMETIC, IT'S NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT" and it slowly descended into worse and worse...to the point they're now selling an emote for 12 bucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
And here' comes the issue that MIGHT happen with the application as well: giving more unlocks for paying more. The cash shops started with needless and crappy old costumes and event rewards that unless you were new, you already had them (with some exceptions of course), but now they're basically focusing on giving more stuff from the cash shop than the actual game...and what if that happens with the application?
What if you pay a subscription to the application to allow you to have a higher weekly tomestome limit?
What if you have to pay to get an additional loot at a raid?
What if you additional dresser space is locked behind premium?
What if you can grant extra exp to your alt classes thanks to the application?
They're starting relatively tame for now - I don't care, I don't craft and I got enough space with my two retainers - but if they see the application becoming more and more worth their time, they might just add more stuff there since "it sells so why not?".
People said that the mog shop would end up BADLY one day but we didn't listen...but if this happens to the application ffxiv might turn into a SWTOR 2 of sorts, a game where you had to pay 5 bucks to unlock additional skill bars...
Or nothing might happen and this will be just pointless banter...I dunno, I might be gone by that time anyway so you do you: get your app, buy your stuff at the mog shop and have fun...just don't come back and cry when they'll add stuff that was once easily available for free now it's locked behind a premium subscription! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And with that, I'm done with the topic of cash shop. -
09-09-2018, 03:04 PMKirsten_RevThe fundamental issue is their short-sighted decision to build a sequential storyline in the first place. No other MMO has attempted this to my understanding, and they should have realized their folly before even releasing Stormblood. Instead, they seem to be doubling-down on it, rather than adapting their storyboards to not depend upon post-ARR content. So, yeah, of course it's a lot of work now - and even a trim-down is still going to have hundreds of quests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
That's actually the underlying issue with SE's development of FFXIV, and it ties in to my concerns surrounding the Companion App and their approach to monetization, as well. Regardless of player feedback (Diadem, Eureka, content update cycle, etc.), and regardless of technical challenges imposed (Housing system, sequential storyline, etc.), SE doesn't change course. I spent some time as a graduate student in mathematics, and one of the issues professors frequently warned about was tunnel vision of a sort: someone aiming to approach a problem from a particular direction, and doubling down when it seems to not be working, rather than retreating and approaching from a new perspective. SE exhibits this same sort of stubborn behaviour with FFXIV, and it results in a lot of wasted time and energy for less-than-perfect results.
Eventually, this is going to catch up to them. It arguably already is. It's why I worry about their steady push toward more monetization, because I fear they'll completely ignore player feedback warnings as they push too far outside people's comfort zones. It also might never happen, though; they've got a sort of slow-boil approach going that makes it less likely players will feel the sense of shock that would push them to quit. But it's nevertheless a huge problem from a quality-of-game standpoint.
Edit / Aside: It's particularly interesting to note that the single best decision SE made for FFXIV - the decision to reboot the entire game - was an example of backing out of a failed path entirely, and starting down a new one, with a fresh approach. They'd be well advised to not be so fearful of doing this more often. -
09-09-2018, 06:43 PMpolyphonicaI wouldn't say it's folly. It fits into the linear storytelling style of the rest of the offline FF games, which is their main calling card for this game. (And the heavy focus on a linear story, even in minor patches, is arguably this MMO's most distinguishing feature.) Even for new people joining now, for most it isn't the fact that there's a linear story that's the biggest problem, it's the fact that parts of the leveling process drag (particularly near the end of 2.0 and the 2.x quest chain). Everything from Heavensward on was a lot better about avoiding this drag, and must less-frequently complained about. If they can address the 2.x issue as they proposed, it should help a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev
They change course more than people give them credit for (for instance, the very fact that the questlines from Heavensward on are more streamlined and story-focused is a direct result of the negative reaction to the 2.x quest chain), but some things just can't be easily or quickly pivoted. The game's content cycle is based on dozens of teams working in staggered parallel at a certain pace so things come together at the right time every 3 1/2 months. A fundamental change to that pattern would have a massive impact on hundreds of people. (It's like changing the assembly line at a manufacturing facility already in production.) And content like Eureka -- by the time Anemos came out, Pagos was nearing completion and we know they were already well into planning for Pyros. Although patches release about every 3.5 months, the actual development cycle for each patch is much longer. (In the case of Eureka in general, very much longer.) So it's not that easy to just change things when you've already invested and committed to a schedule, because the cascading impacts to the entire process are massive. To a certain degree, "less-than-perfect" results are inevitable anyway, but disrupting a stable development process with so many complex dependencies is often a worse form of chaos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev
The cost of doing that was astronomical, and it required completely pausing live service for an extended period of time, but they did it because the company decided it was needed to save the brand. You can't just do that all the time without throwing away unsustainable amounts of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev
As much as people have their share of criticisms of FFXIV (many of them warranted), it's nowhere near that scale of catastrophe now. Even if it reaches the turning point in terms of max concurrent subscribers (as WoW did at around the same point in its expansion cycle), it isn't the next calamity. People often seem to want to manufacture a sense of crisis in the hopes that they'll see the need to drastically change course, but it's unlikely to work.
And last but not least... there are some areas where, despite feedback -- maybe even a great deal of feedback -- the answer will still be "no, that suggestion is out of scope." FFXIV is never going to be everyone's perfect game, and some things that people want are just never going to be implemented. I suspect that fundamentally changing the linear nature of the story is going to be one of those areas that they decide never to change because it's part of their design intention, whether they give people the option to skip/summarize "past seasons" or not. Some of the other constraints that people don't like are probably also just going to be part of the game until it dies simply because it was deemed to costly/risky to change. No matter what software you look at, there are always some constraints like that.
This isn't trying to defend the game or say that it's perfect and doesn't need to change -- it certainly does have a lot of flaws (the 2.x questline drag being a big one, for instance). But I also think, if you want to understand why things are the way they are to some degree, it helps to consider the scale and complexity of the management task involved with delivering content on this kind of predictable schedule. To keep all the teams working at the same constant, consistent pace means they have to value stability/predictability over risk/change.
(All of this is a bit of a digression from the original topic, but it is still related to some degree.) -
09-10-2018, 01:57 AMKirsten_RevI think it's folly from the standpoint of new player / returning player adoption. They actually made it harder to return, in some sense, than FFXI, which is viewed as the more unforgiving time sink. I have taken breaks from both games; when I returned to FFXI, I was able to more or less pick up where I left off, and enjoy whatever the latest content was with maybe a day's worth of dusting off. When I returned to FFXIV, I had the entire Heavensward expansion to churn through before accessing Stormblood, along with some 2.x quests: it took me a couple of weeks. And the thing is, again, even with trim-downs, it's going to get bad later on. Right now, it's an issue - but even if they eliminated all quests and just played a series of cutscenes, we're talking a multi-day Netflix-style cutscene binge for people to get into the storyline of, say, 7.0. It's possible that SE will try to change course by then, but it gets harder with each expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
I also don't know that the single-player FF titles point to a linear storyline. MMOs, since they feature expansions, function more like offline series than offline titles. And when you look at FF as a series, its calling card has actually been significant change from title to title. No character continuation; often no continuation in terms of the mechanics. What SE has done with XIV is akin to what would have happened if FF8, 9, and 10 had all featured Cloud v Sephiroth still. The problem with this approach would have rapidly become apparent to them there, too: a huge barrier to entry for new players by the time later titles rolled around.
I think I see slight modifications at times, but we'll have to agree to disagree, here. I really don't see them as being particularly responsive in most core respects. There are a couple of notable exceptions, like the introduction of Savage-level and Ultimate-level content. That was good. But if you look at a lot of the core FFXIV systems, I really haven't seen much. Housing availability remains a problem roughly four years after it released, because they've stubbornly refused to introduce pure instanced housing - something FFXI offered everyone over 15 years ago, might I add. Glamour logs remain a no-go, despite, again, multi-year requests (though I'll grant that they're working on this - slowly). Concerns about monetization have fallen on absolutely deaf ears. Requests for fresh content have seemingly been intentionally trolled, with Diadem progressing to Diadem 2.0 and then to 'Diadem 3.0' (aka Eureka Anemos and Pagos). Hemming and hawing around the edges isn't always enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
I'd also suggest that SE is making a mistake with their development plan, if they have as little flexibility as you describe. Planning isn't as simple as writing everything down well in advance: as any good project manager will tell you, it's also building in time for unexpected obstacles, and building content and code in a way that's flexible and as easily adapted as possible. The reason for this, of course, is that plans frequently change based on user feedback - at least if you're being responsive to your users. If SE has left themselves with so little leeway that the best they can do between receiving Anemos feedback and the release of Pagos - roughly five months - is to add in bunny FATEs and reduce the rate of NM spawns, then they have seriously handcuffed themselves. At the very least, they need to be soliciting feedback earlier, releasing concept content on a public test realm or having real honest-to-goodness Q&A sessions, so that they can spot problems well enough in advance to adapt.
A fair point. For me personally, much of the reason that I post more critical thoughts like these is because I am frustrated, immensely so, with FFXIV. As an MMO, it has certain hooks into me, independent of SE: my significant other and I play together; we own a house; I'm invested in my character. That largely stops me from quitting or, given the house, even taking extended breaks in my subscription.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
Unfortunately, in my estimation, the game is simply bad. Not even good-but-flawed: it's just bad. There is no pleasurable long-term content for me to sink my teeth into (I'm not a Raider). The most I get out of every update is new Craftable gear, and I do enjoy those first few weeks: gathering everything for myself, farming all-HQ ingredients to make sure I don't screw things up, figuring out rotations that'll work. Some might consider it bland, but I enjoy it. I invariably spend a night (at most) knocking out the MSQ, and enjoy that as well. And... then it's done. And I've got roughly 12 weeks to go until the next content update. I have to delve into things like my Achievements log in order to find anything reasonably fun to sink time into, but I'm running out of non-insane grinding tasks, there. So I'm not speaking up in order to manufacture a crisis... I'm speaking up because for me personally, there is one: one that will inevitably force me to cut ties to a game I once loved, and very much want to enjoy again. That's frustrating.
It's actually the same sort of feeling I get when I think about Half-life 3. I know it'll almost certainly never release. And yet, that leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, and a very real anger at Valve: they started something amazing, then dickered around and didn't end up finishing it. While that's their right as a company, it has an impact on me (and millions of others), and about all that we can do is speak our minds.
A very fair point. It'll happen. The best development teams, however, at least give off the appearance that they're trying. I don't get that sense from FFXIV's group, not in the slightest. It could be they are trying and aren't communicating it well; it could be that I'm very much not their target gamer for FFXIV (though I'd be surprised at this one) - but regardless, I don't get the sense they're trying.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
I'll compare this to Larian, the development company behind the Divinity games. Divinity: Original Sin 2 has some issues, even with the Definitive Edition. Yet, here's a company that released a significant version update, with content, system revisions, etc., all for free. And released several hotfix-style updates to it within 72 hours. I'm going to give them a pass if a quest doesn't work quite right, or has sensitive triggers. They've shown me very vividly that they care about the quality of their title, and the feedback of their users. If they still get a few things wrong, well, nobody's perfect.
I want that sense from SE. I don't feel like they've put real, honest effort into FFXIV since the 2.x era. I feel like it's been on autopilot, an overly-manicured cash cow that they touch up juuuuuuust enough to keep player anger from boiling over to the point of mass exodus. I feel like if that isn't SE's plan, they should be able to shake things up in a way that puts that feeling to bed. So far they haven't, but hope springs eternal... -
09-10-2018, 02:55 AMShyngo
While we are on this topic, can anyone confirm you get a free retainer with the $5 sub? or is it hire an extra one above limit(therefore unlocks the possibility of spending $2 more)?
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09-10-2018, 03:05 AMern815FAQ mentions hire new retainer at no extra cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyngo
https://companion-app.finalfantasyxi...ice-plans.html -
09-10-2018, 03:09 AMShyngoyeah, early discussion on this topic ppl mentioned it could be a mistranslation, which is why im asking if anyone can confirm that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ern815
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09-10-2018, 05:24 AMpolyphonicaYes, that's how it works. The retainer is included in the app subscription, you just have to go through the step of hiring it in-game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyngo