So about Summoner...

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Sorry i mean vulnerability damage is not even half of that. Summoner have 487.6 vulnerability dps while even in fastest speed kill there is 215 vulnerability dps. Even that summoner you linked have only 223 vulnerability dps. 1min longer fight not double value of your vulnerability no matter how I look at it. There is something wrong with that. I have never seen that high number o6s from that.

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I couldn't tell you *shrug* His other numbers look more normal, so I'll count that as an outlier.
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...CmqcjTxz3Rpd/2 Here's another with probably more normal numbers.
6256 personal, 437 rDPS, 6,419 total. He ranked 82nd percentile here.

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...FBgHwJhaCGn3/2 Mine from before for the sake of keeping them in one post (91st percentile):
6,009 damage out
322.3 from embolden
6,037 total.

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Phantom Train is purely padding against 8 targets so no point discuss about that.

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Did I...? Shit, sorry.
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...qT3wMxhkr8BY/7
6,569 out, 6,396 total.

RDM has way too low DPS. Looking at 75th percentile it needs at least + 200-300 dps to be ok.
SMN has too high DPS and looking at 75th it needs about - 200 dps to be balanced.

Raise should be removed completely.

But you have to consider: Both classes rely on group composition for their support. Both need a physical group to provide best support. SMN could go with a magical group but then has to deal with garuda positioning.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

RDM has way too low DPS. Looking at 75th percentile it needs at least + 200-300 dps to be ok.
SMN has too high DPS and looking at 75th it needs about - 200 dps to be balanced.

Raise should be removed completely.

But you have to consider: Both classes rely on group composition for their support. Both need a physical group to provide best support. SMN could go with a magical group but then has to deal with garuda positioning.

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That's a unique take on it; SMN would have to be balanced to be a bit stronger than RDM in this hypothetical because of the inherent advantages physical buffs have against magical buffs. But make RDM the physical buffing mage and SMN the magical buffing mage...I can see this being a neat line to draw.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

RDM has way too low DPS. Looking at 75th percentile it needs at least + 200-300 dps to be ok.
SMN has too high DPS and looking at 75th it needs about - 200 dps to be balanced.

Raise should be removed completely.

But you have to consider: Both classes rely on group composition for their support. Both need a physical group to provide best support. SMN could go with a magical group but then has to deal with garuda positioning.

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But that not make casters competitive between physical damage users. BLM need 200 dps reach samurai level and rdm need like 500 dps if you are comparing 75%. That would fall into double physical or triple melee meta again. Monk already have by far fastest speed kills compared to casters.

BLM and SAM are nearly equal. Current difference at 75th is about 60dps, that's 1%.
Maybe physicals need balancing too, I just looked at balance between casters.

@Dualgunner
No SMN should not be caster only buff. As well as RDM should not be physical only buff. No other class has such limitations for their buffs. Just make that buffs independend from the dmg type to allow more raidcompositions to be effective.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

BLM and SAM are nearly equal. Current difference at 75th is about 60dps, that's 1%.
Maybe physicals need balancing too, I just looked at balance between casters.

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If you compare o6s sam can do over 200 dps more than blm.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21/#boss=52

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

BLM and SAM are nearly equal. Current difference at 75th is about 60dps, that's 1%.
Maybe physicals need balancing too, I just looked at balance between casters.

@Dualgunner
No SMN should not be caster only buff. As well as RDM should not be physical only buff. No other class has such limitations for their buffs. Just make that buffs independend from the dmg type to allow more raidcompositions to be effective.

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Monk benefits only from physical, even though the party all benefits from Brotherhood; its full effects are only felt in a full physical comp. You'll also have to forgive me, I may have misinterpreted your post as an idea being tossed around for caster balance instead of an assessment of current caster balance.

In which case, though you acknowledged it, SMN is where casters need to be to be competitive. Bringing it down only harms the role's viability entirely. RDM and BLM need to be brought up to its level of competitiveness. Note when I say that, however, I'm not saying that either caster needs to surpass SMN; it's the speedkill caster, I think everybody's used to that at this point, however RDM and BLM do need to be touched up so not being a SMN isn't as glaring an issue as it is.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If you compare o6s sam can do over 200 dps more than blm.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21/#boss=52

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Ok and if you compare o6s then SMN is 100dps behind BLM....
You can not just pick a single specific fight and use it as balancing benchmark.

@Dualgunner
Right, I forgot that brotherhood is physical only. Should be adjusted as well.
In general there should be no "if you bring this class you need to bring that class and you can not bring that other class" stuff according to balancing. PPL should be able to play the classes they like and the only thing that should have impact on composition is the role (melee vs. range) and that impact should be small. Why not bring 4 melee? Why not bring 4 range? If the game is good then both should work without much penalty.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

Ok and if you compare o6s then SMN is 100dps behind BLM....
You can not just pick a single specific fight and use it as balancing benchmark.

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Well I compered that because it have purely singletarget fight. If you compare aoe fights then summoner need huge nerf. But in general singletarget dps is what usually matter, not aoe dps.

Edit:
Way how summoner aoe would be nerfed is make death flare and akh morn singletarget only and boost tri-bind potency 70 - 100 even without stance + remove dot drop off from the bane. Nerf painflare for 100 - 150 potency. Reduce cast time for tri-bind 1.5sec so it would be possible weave between tri-binds. Then summoner would have more sustained aoe damage than burst aoe damage and you could not abuse that burst during add phases like o5s. That would make it more balanced in certain fights. Deathflare, akh morn and painflare are main problems why summoner dps is insanely high in any aoe encounter.

If you need a singletarget fight, then have a look at Kefka for compare as well. BLM > SAM there.

Not only adds affect the efficiency of a job, downtimes and movement mechanics affect it as well.

SAM needs uptime on the boss because he has nearly no delayable bursts and higanbana suffers a lot when the boss disappers early after application. Buffs run out too if the boss is untargetable for too long time.
MNK has a similar problem. That's why MNK and SAM do so well in O6. No positionals, 100% uptime.

You simply can not balance for all kinds of bosses.

And the crazy ADD dps for top SMN on O5 results from delaying bahamut trance and keeping 2 etherstacks and then to combine 2 painflare with deathflare (start trance and end it immediately) and then call bahamut and enkindle.
But if you don't "cheat" and use the skip strategy the SMN will get problems with his ghost in the passenger cabin. Because there is nothing left he can use. This is very specific to that single fight.