[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

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Originally Posted by Carpe

Thanks for adding to the discussion and I think these are some awesome questions.

Personally, this is how I can see this possibly being implemented.

1)1H-Axes shouldn't be essentially different from 2H-Axes, in my mind they should all fall under some general weapon type which would be AXE. Since AXE=MRD, equipping a 1H Axe would make you a MRD. If they really wanted to differentiate more between the two they could make some abilities require 1H, others require 2H, and others that could be used by both. (Although abilities that would require 1H or 2H I think should be a very small subset of the general AXE skills that you learn).

2)Abilities that MAKE you a Beastmaster like charm, gauge, reward, etc. should be learned through your title.

So using the more visual rank system we were talking about it could look something like this:

Beastmaster - Recruit learns Charm & Wide Scan
Beastmaster - Initiate learns Gauge & Vermin Killer
Beastmaster - Novice learns Reward & Resist Slow

Obviously I just pulled these abilities/traits from FFXI, but it gives you a sense of how it can be learned, they might rename/rework abilities to fit this game better.

Another thing I think is this points to another reason why we need this type of system because as the system stand now in FFXIV (armory system by itself) how are you even going to implement PET classes? Make a "Pet-Master" weapon? Seems too specific to me to have a weapon like that and then also need to do the same thing for a summoner. Having these kind of abilities being learned through the Title/Job system makes it connect a lot smoother.

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I agree with you almost 100%, the title system makes it much easier to implement and makes people see the similarities with classes vs. titles. On another note of this, maybe I skipped over it and I don't think I did. What if you don't have the weapon specialist that compliments the title you want to play? Do you practically just level up the specialist itself at the same time while you're leveling your title rank?

Like this; You get both SP and points. I.E AXE (MRD) > BST. Do you get both the SP for MRD and the points for the title? or do you need to level MRD first and then get the title? What about a level restriction to people who are new? They need to level a class first in all fairness, due tot hte fact that it would help create more dynamic into getting a title and getting that title to Master. or would there be a level 30-40 requirement to unlock the chance to actually start progressing through said title?

I think they should be independently leveled.
One getting SP and the other getting JP.
Also no single weapon class should be specialized to a single Title. So you could raise Beastmaster while training Archer Weapon Class and use your pet to hold a monster while you shot it at range.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I think they should be independently leveled.
One getting SP and the other getting JP.
Also no single weapon class should be specialized to a single Title. So you could raise Beastmaster while training Archer Weapon Class and use your pet to hold a monster while you shot it at range.

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That has the potential to cause a balance issue. It will end up being everybody being with their title, and using a different class which is not "optimal" to that title at all together, and it will end up everybody being the same again. Like Having SMN have it's summons and using all archer abilities. If you say there is an optimal weapon for each title, then that throws out the whole customization with titles and classes that was theorized in the OP.

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Originally Posted by Gath

That has the potential to cause a balance issue. It will end up being everybody being with their title, and using a different class which is not "optimal" to that title at all together, and it will end up everybody being the same again. Like Having SMN have it's summons and using all archer abilities. If you say there is an optimal weapon for each title, then that throws out the whole customization with titles and classes that was theorized in the OP.

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I was refering mainly to limiting certain weapons to certain titles. Instead If your skill favors your Job Title you get to use it at 100% effectiveness if your using it out of favor you can only use it at 50%.

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Do you get both the SP for MRD and the points for the title? or do you need to level MRD first and then get the title? What about a level restriction to people who are new? They need to level a class first in all fairness, due tot hte fact that it would help create more dynamic into getting a title and getting that title to Master. or would there be a level 30-40 requirement to unlock the chance to actually start progressing through said title?

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I think the consensus has been that the Title should level up independently of the Weapon Class. This doesn't mean that they can't be leveled up at the same time it just means that sp goes towards leveling up your weapon class, while (job/title points? or some other leveling mechanism) is what levels up your title. You might do something (like maybe combat/leve) that allows you to level up both because it gives you sp/jp at the same time the same way that you level up sp/exp at the same time now, but they are on different leveling curves.

I think because you level them up independently they should be unlocked independently, so you still can start leveling up a weapon class just by equipping that weapon, but you have to initiate a quest to start leveling up a title. Before getting your title you would be like an "adventurer" in FFV just some abilities but no real class definition. You would probably be able to unlock the titles pretty early, like around lvl 20 or something. Alternatively they could have some titles instantly available and leave others to be unlocked.

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What if you don't have the weapon specialist that compliments the title you want to play? Do you practically just level up the specialist itself at the same time while you're leveling your title rank?

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A weapon class is only going to compliment a title in that the title will have more abilities within that weapon class that favor it. So for example a Black Mage should have far more abilities that favor it in Thaumaturge and Conjurer, then it would have in Weapon Classes like Gladiator and Pugilist.

This doesn't prevent a BLM from grabbing a sword but he wouldn't be able to use the sword abilities as effectively as a PLD because there wouldn't be many/if any abilities in Gladiator that favor it.

Once you started leveling up your title you can always switch between weapons so a r3BLM/r40CON can always switch to his r30THM and be a r3BLM/r30THM.

Also, let's say you start of the game as a THM and quickly get the BLM title, you level it up to r5BLM/r40THM, but now you want to level up CON for some of those abilities instead of doing r5BLM/r1CON, you can switch to your r1WHM and do r1WHM/r1CON so you can level those up together to "kill to birds with one stone" kind of leveling.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I was refering mainly to limiting certain weapons to certain titles. Instead If your skill favors your Job Title you get to use it at 100% effectiveness if your using it out of favor you can only use it at 50%.

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That could work, but you need people to be limited to certain area levels with mobs. Everybody would level a BST to max rank if it means they can solo everything with that title and just level their weapon specialist to leech off of the BST. Unless they limited the title level with that of the weapon specialist level. Then, maybe it would work out. Then again it would take away the grouping aspect of the game when they implement more, and we know they're going to.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I think they should be independently leveled.
One getting SP and the other getting JP.
Also no single weapon class should be specialized to a single Title. So you could raise Beastmaster while training Archer Weapon Class and use your pet to hold a monster while you shot it at range.

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Having freedom like this would really make this game stand out for the ps3 release. All beastmasters wouldn't have to be on the front lines. All Redmages wouldn't have to just stand back and cast magic(or in XI healing magic). One of the many flaws of FFXI with the subjob system.

Class uniqueness/Individual Uniqueness balanced and created with this system. This is system is what I always thought SE wanted with XI's system but the overall design was too flawed. Mainly since weapons had uneven levels and weaponskills being too powerful for some and weak for others. Which also was held back by not being able to cross class certain abilities and being limited to just one sub.

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Originally Posted by Gath

Unless they limited the title level with that of the weapon specialist level.

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If this really became a balance issue then maybe having your job title rank sync somehow with your weapon class rank like you're suggesting would be a possible solution.

Personally, I think a lot of the balance questions are hard to really think about without having some play testing and looking at some charts and numbers. If it really became a problem they could always limit titles to only using certain weapon classes, but I think for now I'd like to think of them having a more open system.

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Originally Posted by Gath

That could work, but you need people to be limited to certain area levels with mobs. Everybody would level a BST to max rank if it means they can solo everything with that title and just level their weapon specialist to leech off of the BST. Unless they limited the title level with that of the weapon specialist level. Then, maybe it would work out. Then again it would take away the grouping aspect of the game when they implement more, and we know they're going to.

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I think it would be lowered with the weapon class.

For example: r5DRG/r50LNC
if I wanted to lvl my r20 GLA for my DRG It would probably turn out as...
r2DRG/r20GLA


I probably should have wrote it as: r20GLA/r2DRG
since I am a GLA but would specialize as a DRG.
Its like a backwards way of the subjob system from XI

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Originally Posted by Carpe

If this really became a balance issue then maybe having your job title rank sync somehow with your weapon class rank like you're suggesting would be a possible solution.

Personally, I think a lot of the balance questions are hard to really think about without having some play testing and looking at some charts and numbers. If it really became a problem they could always limit titles to only using certain weapon classes, but I think for now I'd like to think of them having a more open system.

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I know, a numbers game would have to be played with before balancing issues would be visible, but if you don't use your optimum weapon and abilities, a hindrance on them could be a way of taking away the offset balance issue.
I mean, actual physical testing would have to be done to see how this would pan out, but in theory and on paper it seems like a 99% legit and subtle way of implementing the titles to the class system while adding game play mechanics to the game and making people want to so more than what the average game lets you do. This system would be totally new and actually fun to play with. Hell, it would even attract a good base of players who are looking for the "different" leveling/grind "fad"