SE... please (an honest DRK).

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Originally Posted by Hierro

DRK is fine.

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And here we go.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

No one was exactly bitching about WAR's lack of "party utility," because WAR functioned and performed its job just fine. People were clearing os4 with WAR before the shake it off change, and that was that. No complaints, no fuss. Did the SiO buff make it easier? Of course, but it wasn't something that was going to make or break the job by a stretch. No one would be up in arms if WAR never received a party-wide shield, and no one would have quit the job if it was never given one, much less complain about it.

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I agree with this, people weren't complaining because they wanted job utility on Warrior. The point was warriors have no utility so buff our damage. SE decided to give warrior utility. Fine on its own and not game breaking, makes shielding the party easier, and has a ton of uses, but buffing warrior means dark knight issues get larger because the job needs to justify its existence in some way. Dark was sorta hanging on with the whole I have a 1 target shield thing, but SiO is a bit better in terms of utility.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

People like to bring up WAR having an equivalent to TBN in the form of Inner Beast, and an extra cooldown in the form of Thrill of Battle, but let's be real. IB was never desirable because it meant lost Fell Cleaves and punishment in the form of 10 seconds in defiance, and ToB was always used for IRzerk windows to buff up upheaval anyways.

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And while it is doing that it provided a self heal and a 20% boost to HP while providing that buff to damage. I also agree, Inner beast is horrible for speed running, great for learning when you might want an extra CD. If you don't need to use SiO lets not forget you can use it to snapshot your buffs into a buffed shield for yourself as yet another mitigation. Warrior also now has unchained for relatively free tank stance for a short time. This also gives access to Equilibrium every other unchained for relatively free and if you have an upheavel during this time it is almost entirely free because of unchained and tank stances interaction with the skill. Lets not forget Holmgang and Veagence being on shorter cooldowns meaning the job has more frequent access to said mitigations (something which often seems forgotten in these discussions of how many do you have), on top of having higher durations on most mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

However, DRK's TBN is mitigation on demand that can be used gritless. It pretty much pays for itself to break evenly. With it, you can supplement your cooldowns. Fact of the matter is that many tank busters are magical, and what better way to deal with them than use of TBN+Dark Mind? You could even go as far as treating grit like a cooldown and supplementing that alone with TBN, and that works out just fine because unlike PLD, you don't spend another GCD to go into "dps stance."

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And unlike Paladin, Dark Knight doesn't have sheltron which can block 26% of damage, which is usually enough on its own. The fact that TBN needs to be paired with something for more powerful tankbusters is pointing a light on the kit. Paladin has it bad with tank stance swapping, but lets not forget grit is on the GCD, has triple the mana cost, and clips into your next GCD big time to take it off. Its not worlds apart better.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Back in HW during gordias, a PLD could not compete with the other tanks without being at least 10 ilvls ahead. In SB, this has not been the case with DRK. It can do all content at a similar ilvl as other tanks and is very well capable of dealing damage that's within the realm of the other two tanks.

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It isn't as bad a Gordias, but not as bad doesn't mean we should repeat the same mistake and make one job do less in virtually all respects. There are three tanks, I cannot beleive that it is so hard to find a unique domain for three jobs. The healer situation seems great. Again, there can only be one meta, but each class should have a domain it excels in. I cannot really think of one for dark knight.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

This all said, DRK is performing its job just fine. It's not weak, in terms of damage nor in mitigation. Is it weaker than the other tanks in those aspects? Sure, but it's not ruining the job. It's not a reason to cry to SE that your job has been neutered simply because you lack an answer to PLD/WAR's divine veil/SiO. "Party utility," as exemplified by the earlier version of WAR, isn't exactly a strong case for what a tank needs.

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In three jobs it is weaker in terms of utility, mitigation, and damage. So everything is fine? K.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

If someone is struggling with DRK, maybe just maybe it's not the job but the player.

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Relevance? I'm pretty sure you can be good at a job and recognize that it seems to be lagging behind jobs performing a similar role.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

And here we go.

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an actual rebuttal would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

an actual rebuttal would be nice.

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There is a huge post of a rebuttal. You made a ton of claims. I pointed out each of them and addressed them in the post. The word count was high enough that I had to repost.

Balance issues that come out for me.

Block magic is to powerful.
War SiO update was unessesery.

whit 4.2 patch.

War actualy become even more bether maintank. whit OT PLD.

War can now do Unchained start use upheaval in unchained and do more dmg whit it then using deliverance.
after 20s unchained drops u have full bar and u can go straight into new IR > + 3 FC after.
Before IB serk change all u did was bushing up your bar for burst windows now that IR make u not use any Bar u can use more IB if nessesery and evry time Unchained is off cooldown swap to defiance for 20s for enmity and not lose dmg because of stance 20% dmg down.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

an actual rebuttal would be nice.

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Chronos been the active Drk representative for months now, has done his research, and is a big voice for balance, not to mention his ideas and his own threads that he himself made. I'm sorry that you can't see all the information that he's been spilling out to you and on the forums guess you gotta use that search button at the top there and get some book marks because that was more than a rebuttal.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Chronos been the active Drk representative for months now, has done his research, and is a big voice for balance, not to mention his ideas and his own threads that he himself made. I'm sorry that you can't see all the information that he's been spilling out to you and on the forums guess you gotta use that search button at the top there and get some book marks because that was more than a rebuttal.

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Methinks he cares little to not at all and is just stirring the pot. Nothing to see folks.

EDIT::
Yeah, looking through the guy's posts here, it's full of detritus. Hell, even a racial epithet directed towards me in the past!
Not even worth dealing with.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

It's not a reason to cry to SE that your job has been neutered simply because you lack an answer to PLD/WAR's divine veil/SiO.

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There's a lot of issues with your post but I think this point is especially erroneous. Dark Knights understood there was a gap in active mitigation, DPS, playstyle, useless skills etc. compared to the other two tanks before Shake it Off was even changed. By no means did Dark Knights suddenly see this one new "party utility" aspect and want to copy it and call it a day. It merely exacerbated an ongoing issue.

Also I still fail to see why Paladin in Heavensward and Dark Knight in Stormblood can't be compared. The only difference is the argument about the degree of change needed to bring Dark Knight back on par, which many, myself included, have reason to maintain is also similar.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

In three jobs it is weaker in terms of utility, mitigation, and damage. So everything is fine? K.

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Simply because one job recieved a buff does not make whatever issue another job has "larger." Perspective is subjective, and that's not suitable for making a case in video games. DRK has not held back any party from clearing a fight. It does not impede a party either. You bring up points to ToB as if it did more than raise eHP to a level like other CDs do, but the fact of the matter is it's a CD that's being used offensively, not defensively, and that IB's useage is undesirabely situational.

Maybe PLD's sheltron is excellent on its own, but can't the rest be said for the entirety of the kit of the expansion's golden child? Grit may cost more, but DRK also has the means to easily replenish mana. And honestly, the MP cost is realistically 2/3rds of what PLD deals with, because you have to switch back to sword oath ONTOP of spending another GCD. DRK still looks much better in this respect.

That said, DRK's mitigation situation is not bad. You highlight WAR's more frequent usage of vengeance, but seem to pretend that Rampart supplemented with TBN isn't better while being on a shorter cooldown. Having established that TBN is mitigation that breaks even with its cost, it's essentially costless and there's no argument as to why it shouldn't be paired up with a cooldown.


Utility, mitigation, and damage. You agree with me that WAR's utility isn't a big deal, and you agree with the sentiment that it was fine without it. I am baffled how you can still ask for something that's honestly not necessary. As far as mitigation goes, TBN makes a strong case for why DRK's kit can compete with WAR just fine, if not surpass it in instances where there's a lot of incoming magic damage.
As far as damage goes, it's not far behind the others. If WAR was just fine prior to SiO, why is it so hard to believe DRK is in a good spot barring a minor damage buff (which it is recieving)?

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Originally Posted by Awful

Chronos been the active Drk representative for months now, has done his research, and is a big voice for balance, not to mention his ideas and his own threads that he himself made. I'm sorry that you can't see all the information that he's been spilling out to you and on the forums guess you gotta use that search button at the top there and get some book marks because that was more than a rebuttal.

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I apologize for not taking armchair gamedev threads seriously.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

Also I still fail to see why Paladin in Heavensward and Dark Knight in Stormblood can't be compared. The only difference is the argument about the degree of change needed to bring Dark Knight back on par, which many, myself included, have reason to maintain is also similar.

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Here's why: seen any PLDs in world first for any tier during HW? How about this tier, see any world first for notable content? See what I mean?

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Here's why: seen any PLDs in world first for any tier during HW? How about this tier, see any world first for notable content? See what I mean?

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No, because simply being in a world first party isn't the only metric by which a class' performance can be judged. Paladin being behind in Heavensward did not make them unusable, just (vastly) less preferable. Dark Knight being world first in some places doesn't make them on par, and does not disqualify them from being less preferable. There are many factors involved that people love to ignore.

Off the top of my head, Paladin was in the world first clear for A2s. Clearly this means it was fine for the entirety of Heavensward by your logic. If this statement upsets you, consider how it makes Dark Knights who feel their class is less valuable lately. The first reaction is for people to cite the Ultimate clear and completely invalidate any input the actual majority Dark Knight player base has to say.
Is it so hard to believe that Dark Knight could use some improvements and that would increase tank balance?

Continuing that line of flawed argumentation, we have not seen all of the world first teams for the rest of Omega and any other critical fight. With the usage rates as they are (which is also not the end-all metric by which to judge Dark Knight receiving aid), would it be a stretch of the imagination to conclude a Dark Knight composition is less likely?

I'm genuinely curious, why would it be such a bad thing if Dark Knights could get some of their abilities reworked to continue to refine the class, even if such changes don't dramatically alter performance?
Edit: I've been told Paladin was world first for at least A1s, A7s and A9s as well.