Is this what balance looks like?

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I'm impressed with the results. Damage-wise, the jobs are balanced.

Now, some of the posters here have said things are not balanced based on the differences between the number of players of the various jobs. I can only answer that different people like different things.

BUT, there is validity to the argument. Machinists and Summoners are both way too underplayed. This points out that there is something about these classes which makes them less popular.

Is it overcomplexity? An unpopular job mechanic? Community bias?

I don't know. I haven't played Summoner much and Machinist is a HW job and I'm not there yet. Yeah, I'm a slacker.

Anyhow, experienced players of these classes will have to lay out their observations before the developers and the rest of the community should support their requests for the fixing of these two jobs. It does no one any good when two jobs sit more or less in the garbage bin. Something must be done to correct this issue.

Something is really out of whack here.

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The impression I get is that for MCH and SMN they're getting hit with everything you mentioned. It's complexity, and unpopular mechanics, and there's a selection bias. And then machinist has the additional disadvantages of having the strictest unlock requirements of any DPS plus I'd wager their aesthetics probably do them more harm than good. Dark Knight and Astrologian don't hurt as much from being behind the Heavensward story requirement because there are fewer tank and healer options. There are many alternatives to Machinist.

In fact you kind of need to look at class representation in separate categories for the different roles. 35k paladin parses makes sense when you consider there are two tank slots per 8 person raid and only 3 options for tanks. 2/3rds of your tank classes are present for every parse. Same with healers. DPS have double the raid slots for triple the classes so they should have less representation for any given class. Meanwhile for DPS there are two runaway success stories with bard and red mage which happen to fill the same party slots as machinist and summoner.

Edit: There was a third paragraph in the middle. The character limit ate it and I can't remember what I said there...

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

...I'd wager their aesthetics probably do them more harm than good. ...

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That stupid lunchbox...

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Originally Posted by Eir_Z

That stupid lunchbox...

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But where else where they keep their coke zero and hostess twinkies?

I have to disagree only because bard has a high amount of players and that class is 1000 buttons so it could simply be feel of the class that people don't enjoy. Honestly ffxi summoner was all about pets (as summoners should be) problem is ffxiv didn't go this route

I personally find the current design/balance incredibly good personally. (a big gripe I used to always hear about MMOs in general was about how trying to make all DPS equal in damage was lazy and boring etc) The current design, thx in big part to the separation of pve and pvp imo, really lends itself to "support" esque designs around the dps "roles". That said, this is a more "sophisticated" design style that will appeal more to the likes of the FF 11 vet or EQ vet but probably not so much to a newer MMO player (aka wow player) and i am personally OK with that :P

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Originally Posted by Conna

Honestly ffxi summoner was all about pets (as summoners should be) problem is ffxiv didn't go this route

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And FFXIV isn't FFXI.
If most of SMN's skills were pet commands, it would be a nightmare with how pet response works right now.

Anyway, what makes SMN so unpopular now is the nerfs it got (even though it was for balance), clunky gameplay, bad pet response and how punishing it is after death. If this was fixed, more people will be inclined to play the job. The puny-looking summons could be a factor but after Demi-Bahamut, some people are starting to reconsider. Lol.

The issue with "but SMN is unpopular now!" is that its hard to prove. For example my go to caster was BLM. Now SMN is my new go to caster, so i could argue that "SB SMN is so much more fun that ppl are flocking to it cuz i did!" Most ppl that "stopped" SMN for SB did it at the drop of a dime too from those i know personally, they didn't even level it they just "nerf!" then dropped. But i also know people that were like ohh SMN looks nice now ill try it! me included :P

When you have only 4.7k SMNs on FFlogs being the least out of all jobs, several threads and pages about how bad SMN is right now that easily outnumbered the positive feedback for it, you'd know they're unpopular.

I am personally one of those players who loved to play summoner, still do, but i am in this predicament where i used to put out average to above average dps in heavensward, and now putting out terrible dps in stormblood. my SSS (i know its not accurate representation for an actual fight but its good for comparisons) usually has me at 13 to 15% left on the boss with summoner whereas red mage and black mage i can finish the fight.

To those of us who liked managing our dots, who liked the aspect of a burst finisher once a minute, who liked weaving our aethers into or dreadwyrms, who liked to solo content (fates or dungeons for fun), the changes they did to summoner DESTROYED that style of game play. Summoners, to me, are the least fun to play that they have ever been. People will say wow you got bahamut, i say id rather lose bahamut if they would make the class fun again even if they didn't put up great numbers. That's the biggest crux for me.

That being said, i am glad that there are people who do like the current incarnation of summoner, but as a long time player, i kinda felt betrayed on this expansion. After each patch that makes changes to summoner, i keep trying to make it playable for me and i keep failing no matter what advice i look up and what i do. Its pretty disheartening in a way.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

When you have only 4.7k SMNs on FFlogs being the least out of all jobs, several threads and pages about how bad SMN is right now that easily outnumbered the positive feedback for it, you'd know they're unpopular.

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The problem is we don't have all the information. The forums and the people who participate on fflogs is but a small fraction of the player base. Only SE knows the current number of players of each job. While fflogs is extremely suggestive, until we see the current year's census, it's conjecture on our part about how bad the situation really is. With all that said, unless SE is holding their hands over their eyes, they have to see there is a problem. Let all us all hope something significant is done to correct the playability issues of both summoners and machinists.