Possible AST nerf

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

Maybe with the histrionics and hyperbole. No one is keeping up AoE balance 60-70% of a fight. Not even close. If it happens, it\\\\'s so rare you won\\\\'t see it the next 10 times you do the same fight.

Adlo is far from worthless and saying an AST can mitigate anywhere close to 90% of incoming damage is just going to make people laugh. Your points can\\\\'t be taken seriously.

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You on famfrit? Or w.e data center it\\\\'s on? I\\\\'ll GLADLY make my point oh and I can get like 5-6 aoe balances most time in a fight each balance is 30 seconds (or 40)
That\\\\'s maybe 2-3 min of balance how long are most fight? 5min? Maybe lil longer? Granted ya balance dose have some rng on it but I can average out 5-6 aoe balances a run some runs I get less some runs I get more

Combin divine seal with aoe shield or aoe shield with collective easy blocks all dmg from most aoe or stack mechanics

Btw I do play ast more often then my whm now

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Originally Posted by simiii

You on famfrit? Or w.e data center it\\\\'s on? I\\\\'ll GLADLY make my point oh and I can get like 5-6 aoe balances most time in a fight each balance is 30 seconds (or 40)
That\\\\'s maybe 2-3 min of balance how long are most fight? 5min? Maybe lil longer? Granted ya balance dose have some rng on it but I can average out 5-6 aoe balances a run some runs I get less some runs I get more

Combin divine seal with aoe shield or aoe shield with collective easy blocks all dmg from most aoe or stack mechanics

Btw I do play ast more often then my whm now

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Have you ever stopped to consider that you are just getting ridiculously lucky? Ive gone entire fights and was never able to draw the cards needed to achieve AoE Balance and I am constantly drawing during fights. Ive even gone entire dungeons where I wasnt able to get AoE Balance until the final boss or NOT ONCE ever!

Addendum: I just tried and after using getting a Royal Road Ewer, it took FOUR MINUTES for me to draw a Balance, and I made sure to use Draw IMMEDIATELY after it came off cooldown and even used Redraw each time and even used Undraw to cancel out my drawn card, and it STILL took FOUR MINUTES for me to get Balance to AoE it. I do not know WHERE You are getting the notion that you can keep getting AoE Balance so much, but your argument is quickly losing its backing if only because of the simple fact that you are getting ridiculously lucky.

@Fluffernuff, yes, Balance is a powerful card, but it is one of 6 cards that is drawn at random as you so pointed out. Regardless of how good the card is you cannot say that AST is op, people have gone entire fights even dungeons, without ever drawing Balance once, are you denying this?

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Originally Posted by simiii

ok lets say I am getting lucky pretty much all of my fights. Then how do you balance it?
For some people it's ridiculous op cuz they draw it all time for others it's fine?

Want balance all 3 healers?
Take balance out of ast deck and make it a skill that raises 20% magic dmg to party
Give sch a 20% physical dmg
And give whm 10% on physical and magical but both share a cd (brave and faith)
Sch will have to lose chainsratigim. And ast can keep fairy speedbuff ast can keep arrow and and whm can have higher personal dps.

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For the simple fact that the RNG is so unreliable, AST doesnt need this kind of change. I want to ask you something and PLEASE do not misunderstand as I genuinely wish to know where you are coming from. Why is it so important to you that AST gets nerfed somehow? Why does it seem like it is so hard for you to believe that AST is fine where it is? Are you upset because a healer you used no longer SEEMS like it compares? I am honestly not trying to be snarky or condescending or rude in some fashion, I just wish to understand, because how hard you are trying to take something away from a class, just doesnt make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

@Simii, I love how you just ignore the RNG of AST, you're in another universe if you actually think anyone will believe you can keep an aoe balance up "60-70% of the fight" it is possible to get the back to back, and then never even get a balance for 20 minutes. if RNG has it's way.

Not to mention not everything will require an aoe balance, when things like mechanics take over where half or all of the DPS are busy. i really hope you aren't one of those AST that simply only take a balance card and nothing else, then i can understand why you think that way. because you lack knowledge of the job.

I'm not even going to get into that 90% BS because i want you to show me evidence of you negating 90% of anything on AST, that would mean everyone would take hardly any damage. This means from hard hitting fights, not one that do barly any damage to begin with.

And last, to spam shields to even attempt that means you'll run out of MP pretty fast, Aspected benefic or helios is NOT cheap to keep up. The only way to get away with spamming it is if you have lucid dreaming and an enchanced/extended ewer up, again, another RNG based combo.

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Thank you again Blood-Aki, Aspected Benefic and Aspected Helios do indeed cost alot of MP, I do not make constant use of them simply because I know I cant, if I used them to much Id run out of MP and like you said I can only temper this issue with a Lucid Dreaming+Enhanced Ewer/Extended Ewer combo.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Where was this mentality when SCH was nerfed? Nah, ASTs going to get it real good.

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Im speaking soley in regards to how terrible Nocturnal Sect shielding used to be, not about any nerf SCH got. But again you are only reaffirming my point that if SCH is falling behind compared to WHM and AST, then SCH needs a buff, AST doesnt need a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Because noct AST is a easy job. It is more for CASUAL players. Now if you actually paid attention to AST's abilities most of them are mainly for DIURNAL benefit.
Collective unconscious aka powerful regen + aspected benefic + aspected Helios + Time Dillation is a really good ability, you use it on tanks to get back dpsing faster while not carrying about tanks HP.
Celestial opposition extend cards+regen reaming time. Why in the hell you use it for shields?
And yes if you read the potency of the shield they ARE stronger than SCH's.
Aspected Helios was already better than succor in 3.4. And now aspected benefic got the ridiculous buff which is better than a no-crit adlo lower MP cost and INSTANT which should be NOT because the strong shields are SCH's identity not AST's.

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I do not use Celestial Opposition to extend the duration of the Shields, never once said that. Also what exactly is the problem with AST having a stronger non crit shield while SCH gets a stronger crit shield? At least the two are still different, SCH has it's own identity regardless of what AST has because SCH still has a healing pet, and with combinations Ive seen can equal some pretty strong healing with the fairy's help. Also Aldo Shield gets doubled on a crit, and the healing potency of the spell is 300 vs Aspected Benefic's 200, you and I both know that once Adlo crits, its the superior shield, it is obvious that you should build crit on SCH....

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

even if they nerfed AST... SCH would still have terrible shields, terrible MP management, and the fairy would still be useless. WHM would still have tremendous overhealing that isn't needed, and no utility. Nerfing AST isn't the best answer, it is just dragging them down into the muck with the rest...

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Indeed! Thank you so much, but good luck getting alot of the people in this thread to realize that. Some get it though, while the majority dont seem to understand....:/

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

SCH's advantage is now limited to:
-number of OGCD heals
-crit adloquium (which costs too much MP)

How about people be honest, read tooltips, do some math, and realize that thanks in part ASTs being buffed for literally years as well as several nerfs, SCH lost a major chunk of its identity. It's not hyperbole to say you may as well play nocturnal sect AST at this point. SE went too far with AST buffs, and SCH pruning, and they know it from the last live letter.

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Then the problem isnt AST it is SCH being underpowered. Rather then nerf AST, buff SCH, it is clearly obvious that SCH needs it, you are just mistaking AST being in the place it needs to be as being op rather then understanding it is where it needs to be.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

snippity do da

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As a preface, we already knew that White Mage had the higest personal numbers of all the healers. this isn't a sudden revelation. No one is/should/will argue that point.

However, and firstly, This is not how DPS tests are calculated. Secondly, on this matter, you're comparing the application of TWO DoT effects Vs ONE. Not to mention, this is a singular application, and not done over several minutes. this makes things inherently flawed and biased.
Thirdly, you discount, heavily, the power of The Balance. The balance isn't a PERSONAL damage increase, but a TARGETED RAID damage increase. Balance on yourself is wasted. but that's ok, we'll give you a low-ball estimated stand-in using your own methods.

Let's use my as a Red Mage as a rough estimate for the other DPS. Don;t worry, it's ok, Since balance is targetted, my ilvl doesn't actually matter here.

My Verslows do ~ 5-7k, meaning roughly 10-14k per GCD, let's give this a spread balance of 10% and multiply it by 2 for the second DPS slot (lets be generous and go for a 4-man)

AST still has their 9k, but the DPS have shot up by 2-4k, and this is discounting the tank completely. AST is supplying an additional 5k for simply pulling a card. simply for existing. that's Per GCD for 30 seconds. if we're generous and say the tank does ~4k a swing, we can slap on even more damage.

Using your numbers, your WHM is bringing 10k actively, while AST is giving 5k by standing around doing absolutely nothing, and 13-14k doing their thing. you begin to see the power of a simple spread balance? this is a 4-man scenario, this get's blown much more out of proportion in 8-mans.



Small addition as I reloaded to see any additions: "100% random", in the grand scheme of things, isn't actually a major factor. Not only did AST get a great many tools to draw more and mitigate the RNG, but a SINGLE DRAWN balance is already enough value for a single pull attempt. Let us not forget that cards can be drawn pre-pull as well.

We account for 1 balance drawn because of this RNG. if we assume constant(100% uptime of) balance, then AST would, frankly, invalidate BOTH healers in every regard.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

Have you ever stopped to consider that you are just getting ridiculously lucky? Ive gone entire fights and was never able to draw the cards needed to achieve AoE Balance and I am constantly drawing during fights.

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ok lets say I am getting lucky pretty much all of my fights. Then how do you balance it?
For some people it's ridiculous op cuz they draw it all time for others it's fine?

Want balance all 3 healers?
Take balance out of ast deck and make it a skill that raises 20% magic dmg to party
Give sch a 20% physical dmg
And give whm 10% on physical and magical but both share a cd (brave and faith)
Sch will have to lose chainsratigim. And ast can keep fairy speedbuff ast can keep arrow and and whm can have higher personal dps.

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Originally Posted by simiii

Kinda like how sch shields are now?
If we decide not to nerf ast and just make sch shields stronger then what's the point of a whm? On a ast I can already negate 90% of the damage and if you make sch shield more then that lol...... no one is going be losing health

I main whm since ARR
But right now I'm playing ast cuz dafaq? I can keep a aoe balance a good 60-70% of the fight that alone is broken enough and with the new patch coming it its going make it easyer to aoe balance.

Oh and btw NO ONE is calling nocturnal worthless. Nocturnal beats Diurnal in a land slide. You say you want balance for all healers but in reality you don't care you just don't want your main nerfed.

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I love how you just ignore the RNG of AST, you're in another universe if you actually think anyone will believe you can keep an aoe balance up "60-70% of the fight" it is possible to get the back to back, and then never even get a balance for 20 minutes. if RNG has it's way.

Not to mention not everything will require an aoe balance, when things like mechanics take over where half or all of the DPS are busy. i really hope you aren't one of those AST that simply only take a balance card and nothing else, then i can understand why you think that way. because you lack knowledge of the job.

I'm not even going to get into that 90% BS because i want you to show me evidence of you negating 90% of anything on AST, that would mean everyone would take hardly any damage. This means from hard hitting fights, not one that do barly any damage to begin with.

And last, to spam shields to even attempt that means you'll run out of MP pretty fast, Aspected benefic or helios is NOT cheap to keep up. The only way to get away with spamming it is if you have lucid dreaming and an enchanced/extended ewer up, again, another RNG based combo.

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Originally Posted by simiii

snap

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I respect your... fervor, but as I stated, we should really account for 1 balance and it's application for that one application. due to the nature of AST it's best if we leave personal luck out of the factor, as this becomes.... well, to put it delicately, it makes it quite messy.

Just gonna leave some real numbers here.
AST gear: 2211 MND, 1163 Crit, 1235 Det, 404 DH, 998 SpS

https://puu.sh/wLdHC/88372d96cb.png

WHM gear: 2211 MND, 1405 Crit, 1404 Det, 404 DH, 829 SpS

https://puu.sh/wLdV8/2143671939.png

Did the Susano X SSS with both of them:
AST DPS: 2103.68 (no cards used at all)

https://puu.sh/wLdCU/684e536494.png

WHM DPS: 2527.13

https://puu.sh/wLdDJ/d5ca2e082b.png

So that's a DPS difference of roughly 424DPS. Assuming your party does 20k DPS the AST would need to provide a 2.12% DPS increase with their cards to make up for lost damage.

Now if you assume you can't just mindlessly spam Stone 4/Malefic 3 during a real fight, if you only compare their DoTs and Assize/Earthly Star you end up with: AST getting roughly 16% of their potential DPS and WHM getting 32% of their potential DPS.
AST: 336.6 DPS
WHM: 808.7 PDS

https://puu.sh/wLet4/44a63a5e56.png

https://puu.sh/wLeph/217d1f95e4.png

So you stil just need the about same DPS increase from cards. (~2.36%)

Edit: accidently uploaded the WHM gear set with Susano Cane, but I actually did it with the AF3 cane, fixed it.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

If SCH and WHM are falling behind, they are the problem, they are the ones needing a buff. AST is not the one that needs to be changed. I never once before used the shields of AST because they just simply sucked. I see no point in Nocturnal if the shields are just going to suck again.

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Where was this mentality when SCH was nerfed? Nah, ASTs going to get it real good.

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Originally Posted by amihavingfunyet

Just gonna leave some real numbers here.

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I was really hoping someone would, as I'm not a healer, geared or otherwise. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

snip

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Because noct AST is a easy job. It is more for CASUAL players. Now if you actually paid attention to AST's abilities most of them are mainly for DIURNAL benefit.
Collective unconscious aka powerful regen + aspected benefic + aspected Helios + Time Dillation is a really good ability, you use it on tanks to get back dpsing faster while not carrying about tanks HP.
Celestial opposition extend cards+regen reaming time. Why in the hell would you use it for shields?
And yes if you read the potency of the shield they ARE stronger than SCH's.
Aspected Helios was already better than succor in 3.4. And now aspected benefic got the ridiculous buff which is better than a no-crit adlo lower MP cost and INSTANT which should be NOT because the strong shields are SCH's identity not AST's.