How would you change Nocturnal AST to be competitive against SCH?

@fevelle

I kind of disagree your point 3 because it would mean going back to the original spell and it's a no

I don't see the point of your 8 it's ok as it is now

And the 9 confuse me
You're asking for non stackable buff which is already the case
You cannot stack diurnal regen if there is 2 AST which is so unfair because whm can and there is no difference

And that's what displease me back during A1S because we could go as diuAst+whm but not with double diuAst
And synastrie was so strong on this fight that I wish we couble have 2 of it

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

@fevelle
You cannot stack diurnal regen if there is 2 AST which is so unfair because whm can and there is no difference

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The reason for this was if I recall, remember the whm has no mitigation outside of stoneskin. Sch has aldo, succor, sacred soil, deply tactics, virus, e4e, fey covenant. Astro has noct aspect benefic, disable, collective unconsciousness and bole. Whm has stoneskin and untraited virus and e4e. That's the reason why with two medica 2's can stack but not diu astros.

But in direction of the topic, it's hard to say. Like others have said, noct astro have the stronger shields( 341 noct aspect bene vs 300 aldo and 189 aspected helios vs 150 succor) but again, what the noct astro lacks is flexibility. They can't deply like an sch can nor dozens of the other things. It's hard to say how can you make a noct astro compete with a sch.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

8. Remove Stella and Combust II cast time to make AST as mobile as SCH while DPSing.

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SCH isn't really mobile while DPSing, tbh. I mean we have Ruin II, but using Ruin II is always a loss of DPS unless you use Energy Drain, which, depending on the circumstances, isn't always a viable choice if there's gonna be quick healing needed in the near future.

I think making AST competitive with SCH as an off-healer would be kinda simple: make the MP costs for AST's offensive spells much, much lower (instead of being the highest, afair), while also letting them change stances at will every 30 or 40 seconds. It has nothing to do with the power of the shields and barriers, but with MP management through a 10 minute fight. Doing that would still not make WHM obsolete, because they'd still have their silly healing power, and it would also not make SCH obsolete, because tbh there's no way you can make SCH obsolete.

I don't think AST is obsolete atm because Diurnal is very powerful, but giving it the chance to be a much more reliable DPS to fill the off-healer role without dilapidating its MP would help a lot of its issues, imo.

I agree with someone else that ideally both healers should be doing DPS and not having to carry the burden of main healer, but that's very difficult to do in your everyday DF group, ofc.

Except that whatever you do to fix the situation has to be nocturnal specific; as you say "diurnal is very powerful", so unless the changes only affect nocturnal to help it catch up, it'll only make diurnal even moreso.

An exclusive to Nocturnal Sect mana cost reduction on offensive spells is such an easy way to boost it up fairly. Even 10% would make a world of difference.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Except that whatever you do to fix the situation has to be nocturnal specific; as you say "diurnal is very powerful", so unless the changes only affect nocturnal to help it catch up, it'll only make diurnal even moreso.

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The thing is, imo, that if you balance AST's stances separate from each other, NoctAST is going to continue being the mess it currently is. The point of buffing NoctAST is to give AST a better use as an off-healer, right? At least that's what people in this thread are saying. I'm not saying my ideas are the end-all for possible AST solutions, but letting them stance dance while also giving them more manageable DPS would make all these variables within the class much more valuable too.

I mean, to be fair, if AST had the choice to change to regens or shields every X seconds, some skills might have to be retooled slightly for balance, such as the effects of Collective Unconscious and some others, much like the Aspected spells or Equilibrium on WAR, but giving AST all these options while at the same time buffing its DPS potential through MP management would fix a lot of these undeserved misgivings the class has within the community.

It's kind of the same principle that currently makes Scholar so powerful: lots of tools, lots of utility, lots of different things to give to the raid; but without making it a complete copy-paste of the class and giving it a very unique playstyle among the three healers.

It's gonna be so awkward fitting two extra slots onto my keyboard setup for the stances if they make diurnal/nocturnal something you can switch in combat, lol. ;-;

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Originally Posted by Rennies

It's gonna be so awkward fitting two extra slots onto my keyboard setup for the stances if they make diurnal/nocturnal something you can switch in combat, lol. ;-;

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What? AST has 32 actions you'd want access to, 31 if you take off stella but then heavy has its occasional use. 30 if you find aero not much of a benefit vs malefic II (even though it's instant and less mp for the same potency) That's including the stances but 30 or even 29 actions means you need 3 bars anyway, and 32 actions doesn't make you need a 4th.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

The thing is, imo, that if you balance AST's stances separate from each other, NoctAST is going to continue being the mess it currently is.

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Except that the only problem here is that the nocturnal stance is overall less beneficial than diurnal. So the situation is exactly the opposite of what you describe. One stance is good, the other just doesn't cut it. If you boost both, that statement doesn't change.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Except that the only problem here is that the nocturnal stance is overall less beneficial than diurnal. So the situation is exactly the opposite of what you describe. One stance is good, the other just doesn't cut it. If you boost both, that statement doesn't change.

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I think a big part of why one stance is worse than the other is because you're locked into just one for the entirety of the fight. If you could switch between the two during a battle, the difference between stances wouldn't change, but the potential of utility for the entire class would change. A lot. Of course one of them would be better than the other, kinda like how DPS stances in tanks are overall preferable than tank stances save for certain moments of fights, but it wouldn't make an entire stance pointless and irrelevant like Nocturnal is atm. Having access to regens AND shields for different parts of the fight, while also having good sustained DPS potential would effectively make Astrologian a great off-healer, which is the main problem of Nocturnal Sect currently: it was created to let Astrologian fill a role that simply *can't* be boiled down to "has shields."


This change would hardly affect how Astrologian develops as a main healer though, which would make Nocturnal Sect used less when filling this role, but it would also make it much more relevant while being off-healer, not as a perpetual stance, but as a Cooldown of sorts, much like Tank stances work for Dark Knights, for example.

One of the things that shows how bad nocturnal is, is the fact if you could change in combat there would almost never be a reason to.