DRK tanking. A little bit of pain.

If you're scraping the bottom of your health pool, one of three (point five) things will happen no matter what you do:

1. YOU DIE because the healer didn't heal you and you're taking a lot of damage.

2. YOU'RE JUST FINE because the healer heals you and you weren't really taking a lot of damage.

3. YOU HIT LIVING DEAD to try and live and then:
-- a. Your healer ignores it. See point 1.
-- b. Your healer heals you. See point 2.


tl;dr: Turning Grit on and using a DA+SE will take you at least two full GCDs. If you're in panic mode to where you wouldn't wanna chunk HP on a DP in your scenario, you're already past the point where you can help yourself. I'm sorry, but that's just the fact of the situation.


And... Every single post you make just continues to prove things I've said before so I don't know why I keep posting. Repeating myself is boring.

You act as though your posts are closing statements of absolute truth that should end all conversation, they're not though...

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

You act as though your posts are closing statements of absolute truth that should end all conversation, they're not though...

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You act as though people aren't saying the same thing over and over which you're either incapable of understanding or are just refusing to understand so that you can build up several pages of arguments all directed at you and say, "Oh look everyone here is obssessed with me I have my very own fanclub trololololol!" It's going to be that drk opener thread all over again.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Excellent points

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I agree with you completely that stance dancing is different than an actual skill that sacrifices HP for desired effect "x". I only mentioned it to challenge the blanket notion that in all instances giving up HP for chances at higher dps is a bad idea. Generally I think it is true, but i'm hesitant to dismiss it is impossible to implement right.

Just as an aside, I still think that stance dancing for WAR is a an HP cost for WAR. Well, maybe a cost risk? In that as long a you are benefiting from the +25% HP of Defiance its a cost of HP to drop it. What I mean is that like you said, any instance you are below the 24k health standard dropping Defiance costs you nothing(not even a GCD or MP...lucky WARs). However if you are above that 24k standard due to Defiance dropping it does become a choice of trading HP for dps. I do understand what you mean when you say reverting is not the same as a loss, but I also think stances shouldn't be treated exactly like they are buffs.Some of us consider them to be buffs because we stance dance, but you could never step out of defiance and have 30k be your "standard" health(0/10 not recommended). Regardless, you are correct I think in identifying a distinction, if stance dancing is an example of trading HP for dps its a far tamer and safer method than skills that directly lower HP.

The only change I'd care to see for Dark Passenger is for the Blind debuff increased by five seconds so it's equal to that of Dark Dance.

If I could get more than I'd ask for Malady as an additional debuff for Dark Passenger, and it not requiring Dark Arts to apply. We've already got Delirium to cover for lack of Monk's INT-down for PVE. It'd be nice for a job other than SCH/SMN to have Malady in PVP. DRK needs utility and Malady seems like an appropriate DRK debuff, imo.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Oh really. I'm sure every warrior that changes from defiance to deliverance and immediately loses a large chunk of health (as max health decreases) is immediately unequivocally undeniably worse than another tank.
Oh wait, warrior is a very good tank in FFXIV.

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That is a bit twisting it though, since Defiance is a +25% HP stance to make up for not having stance mitigation like the other tanks. But a plus about warrior is you can have practically "Defiance-like HP" minus 5% in Deliverance with Thrill of Battle up. So um yes it's a very good tank even in high Deliverance up-time.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Just as an aside, I still think that stance dancing for WAR is a an HP cost for WAR. Well, maybe a cost risk? In that as long a you are benefiting from the +25% HP of Defiance its a cost of HP to drop it...

...Regardless, you are correct I think in identifying a distinction, if stance dancing is an example of trading HP for dps its a far tamer and safer method than skills that directly lower HP.

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I just feel there needs to be a distinction because Tanking as a role is the most dynamic of the roles. what you do and what you should do will change per party, and even per pull. what you do isnt dictated by the buttons you press in the way DPS is. and we all know how "pre-planned" healing can be (duty finder tanks aside). The only constant is that tanks are deigned to receive the damage. how we do this will change from run to run.

because of this, i feel its important to not lump effects that interact with HP as "taking damage". outwardly, yes, in the earlier examples, 24k < 30K hp. you "lost" health as a warrior by swapping stances. but you didnt "take" damage.

lets assume you have a base 20K hp as a warrior for simplicity's sake. thats 25K with tank stance. now lets assume a pull of 5 mobs. these mobs will do 2K damage every... lets say 3 seconds. lets also assume you "took" 25% HP instead of losing max HP in deliverance. that will be 5k damage

You plan to pull with tomahawk, OP, OP, Berserk, Swap to Deliverance, Infuriate, Decimate, OP, OP. that's roughly about 12 seconds or so. the idea is to establish emnity and AoE nuke them down before they can get off attacks. you take your "risk".

you have defiance up for ~5 seconds, in this time you will have taken 10K damage from 1 rounds of attacks (down to 15K/25K). you swap to deliverance and take the 25% HP. youre down to 10K HP
1 second later, the next round of attacks come in, and you take.....10K damage. and now youre eating dirt. dead in 6 seconds.

meanwhile as the stances work now, youre still at 5K/20K HP at this point and can still use Decimate and OP before rolling over dead from the next round of attacks. thats 2 more cooldowns weaved between your attacks.

This sort of situation doesnt just exist in a bubble, either.
sure, in both scenarios theres a healer healing you. but would you rather die in 6 seconds pulling 5 mobs, or 9? meanwhile, you did LESS damage in those 6 seconds. As a healer would you rather heal a tank that dies in 6 seconds compared to one that lasts 9?

even accounting for cooldowns (equilibriam, vengeance, thrill of battle, etc.), Warrior A is already dead before they can use any. 5 seconds used up for OPx2, and 1 second used up for 'Zerk and Delivirance- and then dead.
Warrior B, at 5K hp, still has 2-3 GCDs to use any Cooldowns they need

between these 2 scenarios, Warrior A is statistically, in every regard, worse than Warrior B. Warrior A is dead, did less damage, AND gave their healer less time to adjust than Warrior B. which warrior would you take?

This is the sort of reason why I feel there needs to be a distinction between "risk" and "cost".
MIGHT take more damage soon is a far better position than WILL take more damage RIGHT NOW

[QUOTE=HoodRat;3708471]You act as though people aren't saying the same thing over and over[/QUOTE]

The point of a debate is to argue merits, not simply agree with what everyone says. This thread has never been about me, but some continue to cite my perceived faults. Have I EVER posted anything like self-serving "my way is better" posts? I'm posting now as before of the possibility of lore acknowledgement in the modern version of the class. I've even said that it doesn't even have to be DP. DP just seems like a likely candidate since it doesn't directly have to do with tanking apart from the costly and short lived blind. As for taking intentional damage, warriors have argued the merits of enough on this thread to prove its not beyond consideratation at least. You call me incapable of understanding and stubborn. Stubborn yes, because I see value in this debate, but incapable of understanding? I think you're mistaking simple disagreement.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

The point of a debate is to argue merits, not simply agree with what everyone says. This thread has never been about me, but some continue to cite my perceived faults. Have I EVER posted anything like self-serving "my way is better" posts? I'm posting now as before of the possibility of lore acknowledgement in the modern version of the class...

... As for taking intentional damage, warriors have argued the merits of enough on this thread to prove its not beyond consideratation at least. You call me incapable of understanding and stubborn. Stubborn yes, because I see value in this debate, but incapable of understanding? I think you're mistaking simple disagreement.

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the point of a debate is to bring forward opinions to be discussed. arguing is a sign that discussion has been derailed.

While I agree you haven't explicitly stated anything along the line of any direct superiority, your word choice/tone and... adamant stance has certainly given an air of condescension. A sort of "You just don't understand my obviously great idea" vibe.

That said, myself and Jackfrost have given our opinions on the matter and even given examples as to why we feel the way we do. Jackfross having a far better understanding of the math and mechanics than I on the matter.

You've voiced your reasoning, but have yet to actually substantiate to any degree we have, and that is why you've failed to convince at least us. As far as at least us 3 are concerned, you have been "wrong" until you bring forth a more thought out or mathematically sound plan.
You can read what we've put forth and let that shift your perception, or you can do what you've done and oppose all viewpoints because they're not yours. Simple contradiction doesn't equal debate or discussion, I'm afraid.

All that said, I do agree there might be MERIT to an idea of using HP as a resource... but I firmly stand against that idea for a TANK.
Simply put, a dead tank is a useless tank. A tank that kills themselves is a worse tank that one does not. DRK would need a serious mechanics overhaul to accommodate your idea. We'd need alot more self heals, and alot more absorbs/bubbles for that to even begin to work.
Self heals is ultimately why warrior can KIND OF (but not really) get away with "losing" 25% HP. DRK doesnt have that. not to that degree

I'm not going to sit here and belittle your opinion as you being "stubborn" or "stupid" or the like, but you've failed to convince me, and I feel your position is horribly mistaken. Or rather- just skewed. I really just can't see how it could possibly benefit anything when there are so many negatives. 1 step forward, 2 steps back if you will.

I have chosen not to try to view this as a mathematical problem because I'm well aware that as the class stands now it would create a dissonance with the class. I have reviewed how it would affect things the way they are now by giving a example of a change to DP in it's current state in order to theory craft, but have said that the skill itself does not matter. Throwing numbers out, even correct numbers, would not help in this situation because such numbers would be obsolete after any sort of change so I haven't bothered.