There are already two dps-tank jobs, please don't make Paladin the third.

I'm hoping the stronger changes is a nerf to tank dps. Warriors should not put out the same damage as bards.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I'm hoping the stronger changes is a nerf to tank dps. Warriors should not put out the same damage as bards.

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You flatter WARs too much with this. No DPS that is playing their job optimally should be out-DPSed by a WAR of the same gear level. Even MCHs and BRDs should be about 200 DPS ahead of a balls-to-the-walls WAR even w/o the piercing debuff.

It is definately less then 200 dps of a difference. More like 100 at most and that is still pretty darn close for a tank to be encroaching on the pure dps territory. Bards are about as much utility as other pure dps when mana/tp song is not even used in raids. Boggle at why tanks are given utility and dps on par with bards/machinist. Warrior brings a melee reduction, damage debuff along with strong off tank dps skills.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

That was only for early clears. Once Paladins had ground out a 200 item level set, they were fine and it became more common to clear A-S with them. If Savage demonstrated anything, it's that Paladins are extremely gear dependent for their success, which is a definite weakness that should be ironed out.

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Isn't that with any job? Some will argue skill > gear, but I know of a skilled BRD that went from zero to hero once he hit iLv200+

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

"dps-tank jobs" Look a tank is a tank, PLD WAR and DRK can all tank well enough to beat content PLD just has lower damage on average because "higher defense" except that higher defense means nothing because a WAR or DRK can take any damage a PLD can otherwise PLD would be OP and support doesn't work with how this games designed. Sure you could give PLD healing abilities or buffs but it'll likely just add less for the PLD to do because if a PLD needs to heal someone then the healers aren't doing their job, if SE designed the content with a healer PLD in mind then PLD would become 100% necessary for raids causing balance to shift in the opposite direction of what it currently is regarding tank spots in raid statics.

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While I like this comment, will it break balance? I mean, people will go PLD, other tank, DPS x5, Healer x1. Tension would spark if the healer dies and the PLD is busy healing folks. I'm just running my mouth at the moment.

Anywho, in FFXI, PLD had four Tiers of Cure as well other "healer" stuff: http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin (scroll down to the "Spell List").

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Originally Posted by Vlady

It is definately less then 200 dps of a difference. More like 100 at most and that is still pretty darn close for a tank to be encroaching on the pure dps territory. Bards are about as much utility as other pure dps when mana/tp song is not even used in raids. Boggle at why tanks are given utility and dps on par with bards/machinist. Warrior brings a melee reduction, damage debuff along with strong off tank dps skills.

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No, its definitely a good 200 DPS give or take at current gear levels, assuming equal skill and gear. If its any less than that, you have a very talented WAR and a very poor BRD/MCH.

You might see different numbers if the WAR is given 100% uptime and is literally sitting there spanking the boss like a striking dummy and the BRD/MCH gets ALL THE MECHANICS... otherwise no, WAR definitely is not outDPSing ANY actual DPS job that is being played optimally.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

While I like this comment, will it break balance? I mean, people will go PLD, other tank, DPS x5, Healer x1. Tension would spark if the healer dies and the PLD is busy healing folks. I'm just running my mouth at the moment.

Anywho, in FFXI, PLD had four Tiers of Cure as well other "healer" stuff: http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin (scroll down to the "Spell List").

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XIV is designed in a very linear fashion compared to XI, XIV tries to make all the classes equally good in every fight whereas in XI you'd have some jobs that can't do as much as others. With SE current design philosophy giving PLD a healing focus would either be unnecessary (healers can take all healing responsibilities in fights if they are playing optimally) or OP (PLD can essentially be another healer making it better than the other tanks in essence because you get both a tank and a healer.) SE wants tanks to be good at tanking and healers to be good at healing, making both of them needed and equally useful to their respective roles.

Anyway if PLD was given healing abilities it would be pointless because unless the healer isn't playing properly you would never need and shouldn't need to heal, to make this function actually viable then you'd need to take away the effectiveness of healers which would be dumb. It would just be situational skills all over again which PLD has too much of already.

I am all for the PLD to get some changes - Their AoE pickup is weak due to the lack of damage coming from it, mana comes also hard to come by even with Riot Blade and Sheltron (the ability itself being a joke, compared of what they did used it for originally in their HW trailers).

In addition to TP issues, several PLD skills need to be buffed to be more useful in more cases.
1. Tempered Will - Severely limited use cases in a few boss fights. Not sure what buff would be appropriate for it.
2. Divine Veil - Relatively useless outside of raids since it doesn't give you the buff along with the rest of your party. Recommended changes: include self as target for buff, remove outside healing requirement, extend range to 20 y radius, increases enmity, reduce recast time, possibly add another party buff.
3. Cover - Increase the range to 20 y and add another beneficial effect.
4. Shelltron - Add blocking magic damage effect for ~15s; damage blocked is added to enmity.
5. Shield bash - remove combo interruption
6. Shield/sword oaths -> Off global cooldown
7. Clemency - remove combo interruption, uses less mp, and reduce cast time to 1.5-2s.

This would help raise those skills to be used as frequently as WAR uses their relatively well-designed skills.

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Originally Posted by Februs

It's really weird, honestly. It's almost as if SE started with a completely different concept for Gld and switched gears when they started designing Pld.

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Things the 1.0 glad(1.23 pld) could do;

* An action similar to Bulwark that regenerated TP (and mp via trait) every time the paladin blocked. 30s duration, 90s recast.
* An action that worked similar to Shelltron but instead of blocking, it actually absorbed the damage as health.
* The ability to AoE combat Stoneskin
* The ability to AoE Cure (which wasn't as terrible as it is now, it restored maybe 30% of the paladins HP)
* Divine Veil triggered a HoT when the paladin was cured (AoE, effected paladin also)
* An AoE damage dealing attack that dealt massive enmity, block proc.
* Clemency had a different name but was there. Think it was instant use but 10s cd.
* Same attacks more or less, no RA and GB was a bleed from behind.

The older version was extremely high in utility and had good resource management.