The Illusion of Choice

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Huh? focusing on one at a time is a choice, not a limitation.

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Your effectiveness is limited, at end game, by the weekly caps on tomestones and gear acquisition from raids. You can "choose" to gear up multiple jobs via these routes, but if you do so you're intentionally making a conscious decision to be less effective than someone who does focuses on a single job.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Plus there is the matter of, for example, strength stat allocation, versus vit stat allocation on tanks.

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That was the only real choice (with pros and cons to both options) to be made with regards to stats. Every other job has only one realistic option for almost all situations. It's also likely going to cease being a real choice in 3.2.

Your whole post almost reads like your talking about a different game entirely.

The only stuff in the entire game that isn't just auto-pilot super easy is the end game content and that content it is tuned to a point where 100 more dps from a player is the difference between success and loss

and what's all this nonsense about specs? the only stuff you can customize at all is the cross-class skills and most jobs are hard pressed to find 5 skills that even provide a benefit. Everyone has full access to their skills, the difference between the dragoon that does incredible aoe dps and the one that barely does decent single target is one is choosing to use the tools given him while the other is just being lazy.

and fire and ice mages? there is no such thing... Ice only exists as a downtime mechanic to regulate mage damage over time. The fire and ice are just skins to look thematic and pretty for a build up/discharge mechanic. If you come across an "ice mage" he will be doing 300-400dps at the very best
And that's true for every class too, aside from optimizations on where to use cooldowns and apply buffs/debuffs the actual basic damage rotations are limited to one for single target and one for aoe. The only one I can even think of that has variance is a bard can choose to just dump all his tp straight into aoe or DoT up the whole pack of mobs for a bunch of free ocd rain of death procs

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Crossclass abilities come to mind. Potency and behavior changes on multiple crossclass abilities based on the job using them.

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Cross classing doesn't really fill this niche, in my opinion. It's more similar to how SMN and SCH work, where they have the same base, but venture off to a DPS and healer build.

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Huh? focusing on one at a time is a choice, not a limitation. I had every class to 30 before I focused one to 50, and I had EVERY doh class to 49 before I pushed them each to 50. As for job locks in instances, many people still swap out gear before a boss if it suits a smoother encounter. Plus there is the matter of, for example, strength stat allocation, versus vit stat allocation on tanks.

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No the limitation is set by the game due to max tomestone weekly caps, and gear drops from raids. Let's say 3.2 launches and I main SMN. I upgrade my weapon and/or chest piece in the first few weeks with tomestones of lore. Then we find out that BLM is actually better for the raid, and I should swap. Instead of just swapping my spec, I now need to spend several more weeks getting tomestones to gear that to be acceptable in the encounter. Even if I did swap to BLM and start gearing that up and now my BLM Is 235 ilvl and my SMN is 212, and we get to A8S and realize that SMN is the better choice here due to the better AoE. Yet I am 20 ilvls behind and it will take months for it to catch up. That is what I mean by you can only gear one job TO MAX at a time

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Well sure, so long as you ignore the benefits of unlocking new crossclass abilities, ease of accessing certain df queues, stat allocation, crafting/melding gear into specific stats for specific needs, better understanding other party roles and how they interact with your own (aka skill buiding).

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I am not ignoring benefits, those are different things. That is like saying, I want vanilla ice cream and you say well sure if you ignore the fact that they give ice creams in cones. I mean, great, but that's not the same thing. (Yes I love food analogies, sue me).

Cross class abilities would be more in line with what I was talking about if you had many many more to choose from, so that you could create different builds - but as it is, you can't.
DF Queues, unsure how this is related. Care to elaborate?
Stat allocation - yes this would be awesome if there was a reason to put your stats in anything other than the only stat that affects you (excluding putting 1-3 PIE in for BLM and STR/VIT for tanks)
Crafted gear is useless
Materia Melding is a step in the customization direction, but the system needs an overhaul for it to be any good

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Your whole post almost reads like your talking about a different game entirely.

The only stuff in the entire game that isn't just auto-pilot super easy is the end game content and that content it is tuned to a point where 100 more dps from a player is the difference between success and loss

and what's all this nonsense about specs? the only stuff you can customize at all is the cross-class skills and most jobs are hard pressed to find 5 skills that even provide a benefit. Everyone has full access to their skills, the difference between the dragoon that does incredible aoe dps and the one that barely does decent single target is one is choosing to use the tools given him while the other is just being lazy.

and fire and ice mages? there is no such thing... Ice only exists as a downtime mechanic to regulate mage damage over time. The fire and ice are just skins to look thematic and pretty for a build up/discharge mechanic. If you come across an "ice mage" he will be doing 300-400dps at the very best
And that's true for every class too, aside from optimizations on where to use cooldowns and apply buffs/debuffs the actual basic damage rotations are limited to one for single target and one for aoe. The only one I can even think of that has variance is a bard can choose to just dump all his tp straight into aoe or DoT up the whole pack of mobs for a bunch of free ocd rain of death procs

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Indeed, I am talking about the argument of "Illusion of Choice" used against suggestions for specs and stat allocation. I am not suggesting any of this is currently in the game, just that it should be in the game.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Your whole post almost reads like your talking about a different game entirely.

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You didn't comprehend the post at all, then. They aren't saying that the game is like this, but rather arguing that the common argument against providing customization (that the choice is only an "illusion") isn't a good one because the choice can still be engaging even if there's a "best" build.

Overall a good idea OP and I do wish this game had more choice instead of being locked into the single specific meta for each class or else be branded as bad. I think people aren't reading your post all the way through and just latching onto this whole Ice Mage thing for....some....reason. This game would be way more enjoyable for me if classes like the BLM could use (for example) their ice spells and be more of an ice mage, or a thunder mage. (I'm not saying people should do that now, I'm talking about if an ice mage and thunder mage were actually on par with fire mages!!!) I was very disappointed in the whole BLM mechanic for this game, with ice and thunder spells only being filler moves and fire being the only real means of dps. I wanna throw out some Thundaga or Blizzaga like in FF Tactics Advance and be able to do some serious damage. THM was the class I started the game as because of my nostalgia for the old games but after seeing how its spells worked I got so pissed I stopped playing it at around level 11 and didn't go back to it for over a year. I doubt they will ever give us more choice in regards to the way classes work though because the entire system would have to be re-balanced.

Don't listen to the naysayers. :)

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Originally Posted by Ibi

if you do so you're intentionally making a conscious decision to be less effective than someone who does focuses on a single job.

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Ehnn, not in every case.

For example, leveling DoH via Ehcatl dailies. WAY more efficient when the xp is applied to lower levels. Each time you level the xp efficiency (% of a level per quest completion) wanes. So if you apply xp evenly, you will get them all in range of leve leveling wayyyyy faster than if you focus on one class at a time.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Cross classing doesn't really fill this niche, in my opinion. It's more similar to how SMN and SCH work, where they have the same base, but venture off to a DPS and healer build.

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So when a drk build chooses not to level gladiator or marauder, they are still a perfectly functional tank? Anyways... Abilities from similar classes are added forms of customization which are not just useful, but often necessary.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

No the limitation is set by the game due to max tomestone weekly caps, and gear drops from raids. Let's say 3.2 launches and I main SMN. I upgrade my weapon and/or chest piece in the first few weeks with tomestones of lore. Then we find out that BLM is actually better for the raid, and I should swap. Instead of just swapping my spec, I now need to spend several more weeks getting tomestones to gear that to be acceptable in the encounter. Even if I did swap to BLM and start gearing that up and now my BLM Is 235 ilvl and my SMN is 212, and we get to A8S and realize that SMN is the better choice here due to the better AoE. Yet I am 20 ilvls behind and it will take months for it to catch up. That is what I mean by you can only gear one job TO MAX at a time

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Both are casters. Both can use "of casting" gear freely between them, the only hold off is weapon, which doesn't take long to earn a secondary.
and best is great, but until you get the best, 2nd or 3rd best is still a perfectly good option. The game is not designed to REQUIRE cookiecutter parties.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Cross class abilities would be more in line with what I was talking about if you had many many more to choose from, so that you could create different builds - but as it is, you can't.

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I've seen MRD players that can rival WARs, and have MANY more crossclass abilities at their disposal. Just because you don't like to play with the base classes doesn't mean that they don't have merit.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

DF Queues, unsure how this is related. Care to elaborate?

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Purely a layer of convenience. You have more builds, you can have a short queue by entering as the "job in need". And get a bonus set of tomes, xp etc.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Crafted gear is useless

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Yes, i'm sure all those parties that cleared A3S and A4S loooong before they could gear up from tomes and lockouts, im sure they agree. wait. They took full advantage of heavy meld builds in i180 gear, because it resulted in more efficient stat allocation, even over the eso gear people could already access. So there's that. 'utterly useless'. ha...

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Some people don't seem to understand.. the Job IS the equivalent of a talent tree build.

You roll 'tank'. But you want to do a lot of dps, at the sacrifice of defense. You choose the WAR build. You want lots of defense at a cost of dps? PLD. A balance/hybrid between the two? DRK build.

It really couldn't be more obvious that what you 'want'... already exists, and has existed since patch 1.18...

Open your eyes a little and look at the FFXIV job system from a different angle.

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I don't know how people don't seem the get this. "I've played other mmos woth different specs and talent trees and it worked". Those games are like wow, diablo, etc. 1 class per avatar/toon. So you can make a char, level pld, and swap between healer spec pld, tank spec pld, and dps spec pld. And that is the only things that toon will EVER be. If pld was just a tank and you had to create an entirely new toon, level through MSQ, unlock every area/dungeon again, earn reputation all over and all that crap it would suck. So they give each class specs to be flexible without starting over.

11 and 14 don't have pld with tank, dps, and heal specs. They just let you play 3 tabk specs (war. Pld, drk), 3 heal specs (ast, whm, sch), a burst mage, a dot/pet mage, a ranged support spec, a ranged pet support spec, etc, etc all on 1 toon.

So quit whining that pld doesn't have a healer spec. You have 3 healer specs. They have a green icon. Go play them.

Jobs serve the function of specs in ffxi and ffxiv.

WE ALREADY HAVE SPECS. They just have a different name.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

WE ALREADY HAVE SPECS. They just have a different name.

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No, we don't. Nothing in those other games prevents you from *also* playing every class (unless there are character limits, but those are rare). Being able to play the other classes in, say, WoW, gives you just as much customization as we currently have in FFXIV, even before you consider the inclusion of talents and specializations.

And as mentioned, FFXI also has customization, despite also letting you play every class on one character.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

No, we don't. Nothing in those other games prevents you from *also* playing every class (unless there are character limits, but those are rare). Being able to play the other classes in, say, WoW, gives you just as much customization as we currently have in FFXIV, even before you consider the inclusion of talents and specializations.

And as mentioned, FFXI also has customization, despite also letting you play every class on one character.

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Did you miss the part where you have to start from scratch to play a new class in other games? if course because it doesn't support your idea. Having to repeat all the banal "setup" stuff over and over is a big investment just to play another spec. That is why games like wow even have specs so that you can still try different playstyle and roles without repeating all that. Jobs in 14 serve that function of changing roles and playstyle without starting 9ver. Even in wow there are different gear sets for each jobs specs so you still need to collect gear for a new role just as a mnk needs to get gear to play a tank here.

And ffxi having customization is the paramount example of the illusion of choice idea. You could gear up to he a xbow thf if you thought it was cool. But it's performance was poor so it wasn't a thing. Pvp, as with most every game is the only place you can really do things outside the box of a job. PvE is forever trapped in the illusion. You could spend a kingdom for a kclub melee whm. You know what you could do with that? Solo trash mobs and pvp. You want to be a healer drg with your wyvern? Works on solo trash and pvp. Want to be a dps pld? Solo trash ad pvp.

You can do whatever you want on trash solo content and pvp. You can't for content that has a smidgen of difficulty.

Nobody has addressed my point:

Nothing stops me from putting VIT on my SCH for PvP. We CAN spec out our characters in different ways already. It's just that all the content punishes this. If there was a raid that required a vit healer build, or an acc healer build, with minimum mind required to clear, those builds would materialize.

We don't need a new system, we have a system, we need more diverse raids to encourage variety within the system. At least, if this concept is something you're FOR you would want that.