Lets nerf WAR :D

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You mean like how the extreme outlier of Coil 4/5 somehow convincing people that WARs could not tank HM Garuda?

For lack of better terms, this shit rolls downhill. If it's done at the top, it'll trickle down eventually. That's how it works, and that's why balance and parity are so important.

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People being unable to interpret data is an issue that can't be solved (not game-wise, different topic). Even if all three tanks were perfectly balanced; one would still have to sit for the world first. Even if that other tank is capable of doing it (WARs could do 4/5, it was just simply harder; a burden world firsts wouldn't shoulder because it jeopardizes their chances). Balance is not necessarily that out-of-whack (not in the situation presented anyway); but it is certainly overblown.

Well. This is a bit of a silly idea. But I will agree that Equilibrium restoring TP in Deliverance is BS.

I want my HP regen in Deliverance too. Only mildly less joking, WAR alone didn't make any world first clears possible. It took the entire team working together to an extreme degree and stacking every tiny single bit of advantage they could muster in order to actually make the cut. This says nothing about PLD as much as it does how useful DRK's Delirium is.

...And if we're talking class nerfs, why not remove Storm's Eye? Make Ninja mandatory. Give Storm's Eye some other effect.

Honestly, this just sounds like a very salty drk. War's damage isn't far ahead of a good drk already, and drks actually do more damage in tanking stance.

But yes, let's nerf war damage so all the drg/drk edgelords can be top dps as both their dps main and their tank alt.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...And if we're talking class nerfs, why not remove Storm's Eye? Make Ninja mandatory. Give Storm's Eye some other effect.

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Please no. The point of overlapping debuffs is option. If you don't plan to take in WAR as your OT, then you have a NIN to place the slashing debuff on the boss. Same goes with DRK and MNK with INT down debuff.

Don't touch the effects of WAR abilities. Just tweak potency for some of their abilities and they're done.

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Originally Posted by AnimaS

1 is just ridiculous.
2 was already addressed by capping the ilevel of accessories, materia is a part of FFXIV and it's not going to dissapear
3. dicto simpliciter

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"1" is a very noticeable design problem where the developer/game suggested (i.e. gear that you can "Need" on) right side "accessory" gear for tanks is far from preferable to the suggested melee DpS gear for the same slots.

"2" is a design problem with how the materia meld system interacts with standard stat distribution on accessories and how melded crafted gear compares to unmelded dungeon/raid/token gear. If we could not meld Str into Vit accessories and Vit into Str accessories and only secondary stats were meldable into them there would be no need to limit crafted accessory ilevels.

"3" is a problem with encounter and boss design. When stances that give increases in enmity, accuracy and mitigation at the cost of damage dealt have no reason to be sustained constantly and it is considered skilled play to activate and deactivate them when your tanking duties have not changed there is a problem with how fights are designed.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

WAR mains, this is my message to you: Its okayyyyy *pet pet*

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You can drop the condescending attitude. It really does nothing for your argument other than making you look patronizing. Your attitude throughout the entire thread has been caustic which is putting people off of what you're saying. You sound bitter and angry at WAR as a job instead of wanting to constructively alter it.

The core issue is that the current raid content has been designed so that tanks can sit in DPS stance and just pump DPS until they need to throw their tank stance back on for whatever reason. Take that away and this entire issue vanishes. As someone else pointed out, the stuff that WAR got from 52~58 was obviously designed to beef them up as an OT role but the fact that they can just chill in Deliverance the entire time even while tanking is what's throwing things out of whack.

If you want a simple and effective fix to this issue, Deliverance should cause an increase in damage taken (this is literally how Warrior class in WoW worked up until Cata; Berserker Stance increased your incoming damage). This would cause WARs to think much more carefully about how and when they use Deliverance, and prevent them from abusing it by sitting in it constantly. Of course, if you ask me, the real solution is to address PLD and DRK issues rather than pulling out ye olde nerf bat.

The Equilibrium change is reasonable though.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...And if we're talking class nerfs, why not remove Storm's Eye? Make Ninja mandatory. Give Storm's Eye some other effect.

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I'm more for changing Storm's Path rather than Storm's Eye. Either change it so that the debuff causes the mob to deal less damage to you and only you (it is part of WAR's mitigation kit, so that'd make sense) or change Halone and Delirium to apply the same debuff and remove the INT/STR debuffs.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

People being unable to interpret data is an issue that can't be solved (not game-wise, different topic). Even if all three tanks were perfectly balanced; one would still have to sit for the world first. Even if that other tank is capable of doing it (WARs could do 4/5, it was just simply harder; a burden world firsts wouldn't shoulder because it jeopardizes their chances). Balance is not necessarily that out-of-whack (not in the situation presented anyway); but it is certainly overblown.

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You can't really dismiss this by saying "people are stupid" (which is what you're doing). I guess it'd be alright if this didn't affect you, but as I said, all of us are affected by this eventually.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

"1" is a very noticeable design problem where the developer/game suggested (i.e. gear that you can "Need" on) right side "accessory" gear for tanks is far from preferable to the suggested melee DpS gear for the same slots.

"2" is a design problem with how the materia meld system interacts with standard stat distribution on accessories and how melded crafted gear compares to unmelded dungeon/raid/token gear. If we could not meld Str into Vit accessories and Vit into Str accessories and only secondary stats were meldable into them there would be no need to limit crafted accessory ilevels.

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Agreed.

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"3" is a problem with encounter and boss design. When stances that give increases in enmity, accuracy and mitigation at the cost of damage dealt have no reason to be sustained constantly and it is considered skilled play to activate and deactivate them when your tanking duties have not changed there is a problem with how fights are designed.

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I think the problem also includes how tank design was approached here.

Not going to discuss your suggestions, but I agree, WAR should be slightly nerfed in some way. I love WAR, it's the job I usually use for DR:expert and alex normal (I'm SCH main, so I don't have tanking exp in savage) and it was the first tank job I leveled to 60. However, it's currently too strong and too easy to use since its new skills are basically a dps version of what it had in 2.x (plus 2 new CD that you can just throw in when needed). It's a very effective MT and when properly equipped (STR or melded accessories) it can compete with ranged dps on single target as an OT. It has amazing aggro generation and single target damage and pretty good aoe damage thanks to decimate. Basically no weak spots. I feel like it's a bit too much.

Disable stance switches completely. You're in tank stance, you're a tank. You're in DPS stance, you queue as DPS.
Same for healers with Cleric Stance.

Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You can't really dismiss this by saying "people are stupid" (which is what you're doing). I guess it'd be alright if this didn't affect you, but as I said, all of us are affected by this eventually.

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Can't I? I personally, don't want things to be designed for the lowest common denominator - hedging against the impeding tenuous conclusions. This is exactly what WoW did and while it was a fantastic business enterprise, it certainly destroyed the game for me, as I'm sure it did others.

As I said, it's a problem that runs far deeper than games. I won't necessarily blame SE for making a choice that does intend cater for the more lucrative player-base (not dedicated raiders in general then). Doesn't mean I have to agree. Despite the herpderps who think that WARs being unable to tank T4/5 as well as a PLD meant that they can't tank Garuda HM. Not the kind of people I think the tier designed for the highest performing players should be made with in mind

This isn't even getting into the fact you can't actually get around it anyway. Possibly hedge against, but ultimately someone (or somejob rather) has to sit.

You're right about one thing though. It is easy for me to say what I do, because it doesn't affect me.