Why refusing customization is a fallacy

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Use all the logic and reasoning you want, the truth is (as has been pointed out many times in the dozens of threads like this one) that this has been tried, repeatedly, and it's a bad idea.

Also let's be honest, the only reason these threads exist is because people want to DPS on WAR and DRK. :P

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And lets be truly honest not use a fallacy instead:

Its because people want enjoyable classes, and enjoyable stats.
I'm like one of the worst critics against tank/healer dps you can find here.
And even I dont believe your fallacy.


I mean come on, the OP proposes that replying in such a way is a clear fallacy and yet you still reply in such a way with a clear fallacy?


Irony?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I want to see healers go do content without Swiftcast and see how people react for the sake of customization.

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I have. Dont stand in stuff so I will have to make up for you being bad. That said, you speak of yet another fallacy.
For that matter, another reason why its a bad example is because you rely on being ressed you kill your healer MP on purpose. See how healers respond to that. While also lower your dps and survivability due to the ressing debuff.

Swiftcast actually gives more customization, and would give much more if there were more then just 1-2 useful cross class abilities.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

And lets be truly honest not use a fallacy instead:

Its because people want enjoyable classes, and enjoyable stats.
I'm like one of the worst critics against tank/healer dps you can find here.
And even I dont believe your fallacy.


I mean come on, the OP proposes that replying in such a way is a clear fallacy and yet you still reply in such a way with a clear fallacy?


Irony?



I have. Dont stand in stuff so I will have to make up for you being bad. That said, you speak of yet another fallacy.
For that matter, another reason why its a bad example is because you rely on being ressed you kill your healer MP on purpose. See how healers respond to that. While also lower your dps and survivability due to the ressing debuff.

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Calling people out on fallacies and promoting opinions as facts is a fallacy in it's own right. You keep saying that word yet I don't think you understand what it means.

"Its because people want enjoyable classes, and enjoyable stats."
This is a generalization fallacy predicated on complete opinion. "people" are meaningless in this context. Individuals have individual values and needs all of which are of that individual. "enjoyable" is completely subjective in every manner. I find the current setup to be enjoyable and the stats to be enjoyable as do many others. Generalizing what everyone wants based on your own opinion WITHOUT EVIDENCE holds absolutely no objective weight what so ever.

"I have. Dont stand in stuff so I will have to make up for you being bad. That said, you speak of yet another fallacy.
For that matter, another reason why its a bad example is because you rely on being ressed you kill your healer MP on purpose."

You're personal experiences and the extremely limited sample size they represent along with your opinion also do not equate to objective fact. The reason I have swiftcast on my healer is that it allows me to be more efficient as a healer. Swiftcast isn't only used for raise. It can be used in a multitude of instances and expands the potential and capabilities of a healer dramatically over another who does not have it. This is objectively true, meaning that a healer without swiftcast has less potential and therefore less flexibility. It isn't always about "someone else" its about your personal potential when compared to a healer with a greater potential. I wouldn't even allow a healer without swiftcast in my group for Savage Alex as they are a liability to the team. And lets not pretend that you getting swiftcast is to make up for other peoples mistakes. While it can be used for such this is not the sole purpose of having it and lets not pretend that it cannot be used to help recover from your own mistakes (increased potential). The point here is that a healer without swift cast objectively has less flexibility and potential than one that does. Can you do content without it? sure. You can do content without job crystals too. This doesn't make it efficient or a good idea and that certainly won't change individuals expectations on what they see as beneficial to their group or usuing that basis to rightfully decide against taking healers without swiftcast.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Calling people out on fallacies and promoting opinions as facts is a fallacy in it's own right. You keep saying that word yet I don't think you understand what it means.

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Calling someone out for the fallacy of calling others out on fallacies is a fallacy.

But back on the original subject, I don't see skill trees for abilities becoming a thing due to already existing hotbar bloat. I could see them added for job traits, but nothing game breaking.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Basically, people don't want to have fun, they want rewards.

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Pretty much sums it up. Just content completion. Remember, I'm on your side. I've started 3 hot topic threads about this same thing and I'm just giving you the general idea of your opposition.

Everything for the holy *takes hat off and holds over chest* "BALANCE", even if it means every skill had to be the exact same across every class. (Which btw, there actually are some like this in game. Same skill different name and graphic.)

Once again, good luck! *goes back to playing single player game, has way more fun*

Eh, your topic is wrong, there is no fallacy in refusing customization, the fallacy is in not understanding the complexity of creating content for PVE based on all the variables you offer to PVE without alienating certain job setups from the game.

So ya, Frost Mage, Fire Mage, Thunder Mage "specialization" for Black mage, then what Alexander might make it impossible for Thunder mage to work because of certain concepts so those mages get shun from content or they are forced to change their "customization" into something else. Would you honestly call that system customization when a player is forced to change their skill setup because of the metagame and alienation being thrown at them?

That's why customization isn't as good as people might think it is, they think oh options, oh the illusion of choice sign me up. But at the end of the day the "choices" you make are pretty much set in stone based on what the community says is acceptable and if you choose otherwise then be prepared to be left out of a lot of content.

For me, balance is fun. I come from Ragnarok Online, which had a huge degree of customization, but in the end it came down to exactly what other people who have played other MMOs with extensive customization have been saying: certain builds are deemed to be the best and then people either follow those builds or get given grief for not doing so.

Which is fine if you're only interested in doing solo content, but not much fun at all if you want to play in groups. The customization process itself wasn't fun, either: I spent literally hours on end grinding mobs to get the right cards to put on my gear so that I would have good stats and abilities.

There's no reason to add skill trees or different specs to a game that already allows you to play all of the classes on one character. If you want variety, you can simply pick up a different class-- you're not stuck with one thing. There's even a certain amount of customization you can already do with the classes themselves (VIT vs. STR on tanks, the examples other people have given for healers, etc.). Adding more stats/specs would be unnecessarily complicated and would bring no real benefit in exchange.

Apparently OP has never heard of queue dodging or vote kicking. Which will absolutely happen when people start taking suboptimal specs into the Duty Finder and start producing suboptimal results. You might want to frame things as "people don't care about fun" but I would answer that few find it fun if they perceive they are carrying people who aren't even trying. And many people will see someone in a suboptimal spec performing suboptimally to not be trying, especially once the best specs are identified and widely followed.

As someone else in this thread said, I would rather devs spend their time class balancing new jobs than specs in the same job.

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Originally Posted by Hix

Apparently OP has never heard of queue dodging or vote kicking.

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Queue dodging (I assume you mean withdraw when the prompt comes up) wouldn't make sense because you can't see the party makeup at that time.

Vote Kick takes 5 minutes into an instance before it can actually be used. I don't see a DF group sitting there for 5 minutes just to kick and replace a member because of their job.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Queue dodging (I assume you mean withdraw when the prompt comes up) wouldn't make sense because you can't see the party makeup at that time.

Vote Kick takes 5 minutes into an instance before it can actually be used. I don't see a DF group sitting there for 5 minutes just to kick and replace a member because of their job.

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Well you know how you queue for a roulette and you get Steps of Faith or Bismark and people start jumping ship immediately. Same reaction when they see Blizzard Mage.

Is this so called "ice mage" really a thing? I never seen any BLMs use Blizzard only and I won't understand why people would do it to begin with other than trolling.