Because, despite all the problems it has, it's still an incredibly fun class to play, and I can't see myself going back to the other tanking classes after falling into that delicious DRK groove. Is there a problem with being able to like a class, while still acknowledging the serious flaws it possesses?Quote:
Originally Posted by Delorean
No, it's not. Name a single relevant thing that DRK offers in either the MT or OT role that's better for a party than what WAR or PLD might offer for endgame content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaedan
Additionally, I do not want to see DRK with LNC cross class skills. Blood For Blood would lead to a legion's worth of terrible dead tanks, and a horrible reputation for DRK players that would never see them get another party outside of duty finder again.
Changing DRK to DPS entirely?
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07-02-2015, 02:28 AMKiteless
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07-02-2015, 02:47 AMTouchandFeel
I was initially on the fence about the suggestion of DRK dropping MRD as cross-class and taking LNC instead, but really doing a side by side of what each of those two bring, LNC is a better fit, both mechanically and lorewise.
Here is my comparison of what abilities I took from WAR and what I would replace them with from LNC and why they are a better fit.
WAR brings Foresight which I would swap for Keen Flurry.
They would both mitigate physical damage hits and parry synergizes with DRK abilities better.
Instead of Bloodbath I would take Invigorate because DRK needs a way to regain TP more than a little more self-healing.
Lastly I would drop Mercy Stroke for Blood for Blood, better and more reliable dps gain but with a risk (good for OT but dangerous as MT).
So, yeah, I would be all for the cross-class change from MRD to LNC. -
07-02-2015, 03:09 AMReynhartSorry, but that's actually a very bad point. "Let's not give a job something good because bad players won't know how to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiteless
Why don't we simply remove Blood for Blood in fear that bad DPS will die because of it ?
As long as the job is well designed, we don't care about "reputation".
Risk/reward. It'll give good tanks more option to be better at managing their skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
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07-02-2015, 03:20 AMKitelessBecause unlike tanks, a DPS' job is to avoid getting hit. As a class that suffers from already having the worst mitigation of the tanks, the solution to its problems is definitely not a skill like B4B. And if that's what it takes to catch up to the level of damage output of the other tanks, there's something wrong with out kit as it is, and we shouldn't have to make that trade in the first place. We'd do better with a 5% buff to darkside than B4B.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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07-02-2015, 03:21 AMPerihVashai
It's rather silly that they've acknowledged in 3.0 the TP issues tanks have:
-They gave Warrior a TP regenerating ability
-They alleviated PLDs TP issue with the new shield swipe
And now they've gone a step backwards by making DRKs expend so much TP without the ability to regenerate it. . .
Edit: To the above poster, It's Keen flurry and invigorate that would be the main benefit. From an OT perspective B4B would help a considerable amount as well, but not necessary. Keep in mind that they don't have to make B4B available as well, similar to how Job's don't get straight shot but Classes do. However considering WAR gets an offensive GCD from MNK it'd make sense for DRK to get one in line with the class' history. You shouldn't actively penalize people because the lower floor of the game's players can't execute it properly but it probably will be the case because I can't see them giving an incentive to take more damage as a tank.
Worst mitigation is a stretch, it has the best magical mitigation in the game, worst physical mitigation is a correct statement. Keen flurry and a dark dance change would significantly change this though. Right now for fights like Ramuh for example, DRK has the most mitigation at it's arsenal. -
07-02-2015, 03:50 AMKitelessInvigorate would be a boon to DRK, but with the skill bloat we already have, you could probably fix a lot of DRK's issues not with new cross class skills, but simply be fixing what we already have. Additionally, another problem with B4B that doesn't even have to do with skill levels is that the last thing DRK needs is more extremely situational skills. B4B would be completely dead space on a skill bar when MTing, just like Blood Weapon. And DRK already has enough dead skills on its bar as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerihVashai
It's not a stretch at all. I posted this comparison to WAR on reddit a while back, but it all applies here. And I don't think anyone would want to argue about PLD's mitigation:Quote:
Worst mitigation is a stretch, it has the best magical mitigation in the game, worst physical mitigation is a correct statement. Keen flurry and a dark dance change would significantly change this though. Right now for fights like Ramuh for example, DRK has the most mitigation at it's arsenal.
1. Inner Beast: 20% reduction, in addition to 100% HP conversion rate. Usable pretty much every 15 seconds for 6 seconds at a time, with Infuriate allowing for more frequent use.
2. Vengeance: Strictly better than any mitigation skill that DRK has. Offers a shorter cooldown than Shadow Wall, with the same mitigation and a longer duration, a damaging secondary effect, and application of wrath stacks.
3. Raw intuition: 20% physical damage reduction from the front.
4. Storm's Path: 10% damage reduction with 50% HP conversion rate that is easy to keep up at all times when necessary, with no requirement other than being in a combo (that refreshes your 20% damage boost)
5. Defiance: Provides passive parry buff with stacks of Wrath.
6. Holmgang: TO THE LAST, I GRAPPLE WITH THEE! 6 seconds of not dying. No Hallowed Ground, but it gets the job done.
This is in addition to Defiance, which grants a 25% health increase *in addition to a 20% increase in healing*, which is effectively the same as a 20% damage reduction. Additionally, being off the GCD makes stance dancing not only a breeze, but encouraged for optimal usage in all forms.
DRK has:
1. Grit: Tank stance, 20% damage reduction. Its ridiculous MP cost and being on the GCD sucks, but it does what it needs to. Stance dancing is hard to properly encourage, since the MP cost makes it hard to justify switching back and forth, even with regen from Blood Weapon, and being on the GCD makes the actual switch without a DPS loss difficult.
2. Shadowskin: This is a reskinned rampart, 20% reduction, 20 seconds every 90. Good skill.
3. Shadow Wall: As noted above, this suffers from being the worst of everything between PLD and WAR cooldowns. WAR level mitigation, shorter duration, no secondary bonus, 180 second cooldown. Sucks, but we use it because we have nothing better.
4. Dark Mind: 15% magic damage reduction, 30% if using Dark Arts. Costly under DA, but extremely effective against magic tankbusters with a surprisingly short cooldown. The main problem is that most tank busters tend to be physical. That said, not bad.
5. Reprisal: 10% damage reduction, only applicable after a parry, and only during an extremely short window. Should not be relied upon in any circumstance.
6. Living Dead: Similar to Holmgang, except you can cast it in advance, and it lasts a good bit longer. Major downside, however, is that once activated, it requires heavy healer attention to avoid dying, defeating a lot of its supposed utility as an "oh shit" button. Furthermore, in order to not die after its use, you must be healed for exactly your full amount of health. Because the skill leaves you with 1HP, you will die, even if you are healed to full. You must sustain further damage after Walking Dead activates so that it can be healed. This makes Living Dead not only incredibly unreliable, but also punishes smart play.
Dark Dance does not count as a viable damage mitigation skill outside of trash mobs, since it is in no way reliable (and 30% parry rate on a cooldown is terrible anyway). Dark Arts version should not be used because it is not only not reliable, but also interacts poorly with other skills, preventing their application. And with Living Dead, that evasion rate can end up killing you.
As for Delirium, if that 10% Int debuff is really that important, just get a MNK to do it for you.
So, if you're going to go out of your way to not include Defiance's HP increase as a mitigation skill and include Dark Dance as one (at which point, you might as well include lolForesight), DRK might have one more mitigation skill than WAR, but WAR's are substantially better, and capable of being kept up far more often and far more reliably. It also doesn't count the inclusion of Equilibrium, which provides a stronger effect than DRK's closest equivalent, Sole Survivor, with half the cooldown time and no prerequisite for activation, and doesn't need to be applied in advance, allowing you to use it on demand. -
07-02-2015, 03:52 AMDittoIf only a tank using his CD's were all that mattered when it came to raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaedan
If only.
Oh wait our CD's aren't even as good as a Paladins anyway. Right.
I usually double Drk tank Ravana EX. Me and a friend both Drk. Last night however, he was out, and we got a Warrior to come along, and let me tell you, the extra damage and just the storms path alone made the fight so much easier. Especially in the last phase where Ravana is sitting at 5 stacks and is trying to eat yours, and everyone's face. -
07-02-2015, 04:42 AMPerihVashaiNo this is not the same, 20% damage reduced has a lower MP output on the healers than 20% increased healing this is a common trap people fall into. In addition to that the NET Damage per second taken to heals received per second do not equate out to the same number. On smaller damage things you won't notice the gap as much but on larger damage abilities you will. This makes it innately harder for healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiteless
Also path is a moot point in a raid setting. It applies to anyone taking damage this is another common trap. Not to mention outside of a raid setting it's not worth it.
You also listed abilities that are physical cooldowns, you won't find any disagreement there. In terms of magical bosses like ramuh, it has the most mitigation readily available. You're keeping the fact that inner beast gives hp back, but also neglecting the 400 potency hp drain souleater gives a DRK. A DRK can also use this more freely and more commonly than inner beast if they'd like at a 200 potency as well. However neither of these really factor into active mitigation, just something I wanted to point out. -
07-02-2015, 04:47 AMKiteless
I only listed the HP drain on Inner Beast and Storm's Path as they're extra gains from the skill. Not part of the mitigation itself, but more bonuses than DRK receives on any of its mitigation abilities.
As for Path, while it might apply to everyone, only WAR can actually apply it. And in a raid setting, that just provides another level of utility where WAR is useful and DRK has nothing of value. -
07-02-2015, 04:51 AMPerihVashaiRight but now you're comparing DRK+WAR setups vs DRK+PLD rather than DRK itself. That's not a fair comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiteless
The same could be said that PLD is equally useless on magical hitting bosses (ultima/ramuh etc) because it cannot apply path. Which shifts the argument in a completely different direction than the original assertion.
edit: Rather than shift the blame on the DRK you can easily shift it onto the PLD is the point to be gotten to. You're just being focused on DRK and path etc.