I'm not even going to bother tanking 24x raids in 3.0

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06-05-2015, 12:35 PM
Tyrial

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donjo

If you think this, you are not a Tank. Period.

So then you must be one of those "tanks" who runs Shield Oath 24/7 because, hey, why not, you're a tank, right?

You can do speed runs in Sword Oath and not die, you can tank all of T10 in Sword Oath and not die. Hell, you can do T11 and 12 in mostly Sword Oath (or without Defiance, and only turn it on when Unchained is up).

So let me throw that back at you: If you think that a tank stance is needed to be a "real tank" then you're not a tank. Period.
06-05-2015, 01:41 PM
Donjo

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

It is better, but that doesn't necessarily mean the tank that does that is mediocre. They don't understand that if you're not tanking something, you don't need to be in the stance that generates more aggro and reduces the damage you take - that's a bad thing. For PLD it's a bit more forgivable, because it takes a GCD to switch stances which usually means you have to know when the add is coming (OTing T7 comes to mind). If you've never done the dungeon before and you're a PLD sitting in Shield Oath, then I guess that's understandable. But WAR really has no excuse.

I'm just suggesting that it's not "worse than mediocre" because all it takes to fix the problem is to press a single button. Some people are certainly being silly, but most of them just don't know better and merely need to be advised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrial

So then you must be one of those "tanks" who runs Shield Oath 24/7 because, hey, why not, you're a tank, right?

You can do speed runs in Sword Oath and not die, you can tank all of T10 in Sword Oath and not die. Hell, you can do T11 and 12 in mostly Sword Oath (or without Defiance, and only turn it on when Unchained is up).

So let me throw that back at you: If you think that a tank stance is needed to be a "real tank" then you're not a tank. Period.

My Tank Stance rules are pretty simple. If I am currently tanking something, the stance is on. If I am not tanking something, the stance is off.

This isn't about whether or not the actions you describe are possible. This is about priorities. A Tank has a laundry list of duties it must fulfill: holding hate, staying alive, doing mechanics, and protecting the party. These are just the basics. If a "tank" decides that their personal DPS is more important than any of these things, they have failed as a Tank. I don't yet have a proper name for it, but it certainly is not "Tank". Don't get confused on the holding hate thing; unless the Tank is vastly undergeared in comparison to their party, holding hate is just a matter of efficiently using enmity generating abilities and not the number on your parse chart.

So that you may know the full picture of where I'm coming from, here is my small list of actions a Tank Job can perform that show a unreasonable predisposition toward DPS instead of the rest of the role. The only disclaimer is that they do not apply to the open world as roles and jobs simply don't matter there.

1. MTing anything outside of a Tank Stance for any reason.
2. Wearing any full Slaying(ie. no VIT) accessories while pentamelded accessories are immediately available to you.
3. Wearing more than 2 full Slaying accessories(in the case of not having pentamelds available) for any reason.
4. Refusing to spec more toward Mitigation in any situation where doing so would obviously increase the party's chance of success.

Secondaries can go either way, and so can Bonus Attributes.
06-05-2015, 03:15 PM
TallonOverworld

i never fight for aggro between other tanks simply because i let them tank if they want to do so bad... It's idiotic,ridiculous to do such a thing when adds kill healers as you said. For labyrinth and KB the whole thing is pretty simple as IG tank: KB is tanked West (aka the only place IG will not spawn) so you will be able to grab giant as soon as it spawns (north->east->south). This is "problem solved" for me in every weekly run of this...
06-05-2015, 05:24 PM
Reynhart

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donjo

If I am currently tanking something, the stance is on. If I am not tanking something, the stance is off.

This is extremely narrow-minded.
06-05-2015, 05:43 PM
Hypie

So far what i've read about the Darkknight hes not the simple Madman "DPS Machine" like the Warrior. You need some real Managment Skills for the whole Mana Issue he has-a welcome Challenge for me who doze off with a Warrior. And before you attack me like "you didn't even did coil" yes i did not...im playing the game since 2 weeks and i don't even bother doing coil cuz the addon stands in the door.

And if i tank something my Defiance Buff is up. Not cuz i need that 20% more aggro, but the 20% more Heal income and 20% more life make it more comfortable for the heal. I don't think thats narrow-minded.
06-05-2015, 06:05 PM
Reynhart

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hypie

Not cuz i need that 20% more aggro, but the 20% more Heal income and 20% more life make it more comfortable for the heal.

Yes, but as you progress through content, you'll learn the "curve" of damage. Most boss don't hit hard constantly, so you can easily switch stance (Especially for a WAR who doesn't have to waste some GCD), then put Defiance back up and pop Infuriate if you need your wrath stacks right away.

And when you (and your healer) outgear content, tank stance is basically useless on single targets.
06-05-2015, 06:24 PM
CGMidlander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donjo

My Tank Stance rules are pretty simple. If I am currently tanking something, the stance is on. If I am not tanking something, the stance is off.

This isn't about whether or not the actions you describe are possible. This is about priorities. A Tank has a laundry list of duties it must fulfill: holding hate, staying alive, doing mechanics, and protecting the party. These are just the basics. If a "tank" decides that their personal DPS is more important than any of these things, they have failed as a Tank. I don't yet have a proper name for it, but it certainly is not "Tank". Don't get confused on the holding hate thing; unless the Tank is vastly undergeared in comparison to their party, holding hate is just a matter of efficiently using enmity generating abilities and not the number on your parse chart.

So that you may know the full picture of where I'm coming from, here is my small list of actions a Tank Job can perform that show a unreasonable predisposition toward DPS instead of the rest of the role. The only disclaimer is that they do not apply to the open world as roles and jobs simply don't matter there.

1. MTing anything outside of a Tank Stance for any reason.
2. Wearing any full Slaying(ie. no VIT) accessories while pentamelded accessories are immediately available to you.
3. Wearing more than 2 full Slaying accessories(in the case of not having pentamelds available) for any reason.
4. Refusing to spec more toward Mitigation in any situation where doing so would obviously increase the party's chance of success.

Secondaries can go either way, and so can Bonus Attributes.

Your rules 1-3 are inflexible and don't really take into account the current state of the game.
With a competent party, there is no content in the game ATM that can't be tanked in full slaying accessories.
FCoB doesn't need it (with echo being so strong) and savage coil doesn't need it either. (With how strong i130/135 left side pieces are and the stronger heals/shielding these days.)
06-05-2015, 06:54 PM
Chiramu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbstr

After Labyrinth I stopped tanking them as well. Mostly because the healer and even DPS queues were shorter!

The healers in the CT raids are so awful ><. I mean the majority of healers, I go healer just because the healers I get when I am tank or DPS are just plain awful.
06-05-2015, 07:25 PM
PotatoWafflez

Quote:

Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Your rules 1-3 are inflexible and don't really take into account the current state of the game.
With a competent party, there is no content in the game ATM that can't be tanked in full slaying accessories.
FCoB doesn't need it (with echo being so strong) and savage coil doesn't need it either. (With how strong i130/135 left side pieces are and the stronger heals/shielding these days.)

The current state of the game as I see it as a casual player who doesn't have a static is that, Tanks can't tank, DPS can't do anything other than sit on the boss and Healers can't heal.

So while I can agree that maximising DPS is great and if you are comfortable doing that go for it but I can also see why Donjo would much rather see a tank just doing their role as tank and keeping agro and not trying to do other things on top of that.

Especially in the context of 24 man content that most people solo queue, if we are talking about a pre-made 8 man group or a pre-made 24 man alliance then I would agree with you more however.
06-05-2015, 07:46 PM
CGMidlander

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotatoWafflez

The current state of the game as I see it as a casual player who doesn't have a static is that, Tanks can't tank, DPS can't do anything other than sit on the boss and Healers can't heal.

So while I can agree that maximising DPS is great and if you are comfortable doing that go for it but I can also see why Donjo would much rather see a tank just doing their role as tank and keeping agro and not trying to do other things on top of that.

Especially in the context of 24 man content that most people solo queue, if we are talking about a pre-made 8 man group or a pre-made 24 man alliance then I would agree with you more however.

Pandering to less than ideal parties is where Donjo's condition #4 (which I didn't object to) comes in.

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