Enkrateia, Thank you for such a detailed explanation.
As an Aside;
For the most part, from my perspective, it is hard to blame any level of player in this situation. The soloist stand to suffer by the reset, and the crow stands to suffer by not resetting. I feel that, rather than placing the blame on either party on this, further encouragement in the motions to streamline this content to assure satisfaction by both groups would be more prudent.
It is clear that this content is causing the playerbase to turn inward on itself more so than any previously released content, and it is my humble but passionate personal observation that this is contrary to the spirit of teamwork Square Enix has tried to foster with this game.
I would urge the community team to pressure the developers to issue some sort of statement as to further plans with this content to help alleviate issues on this matter. (Beyond the stated increase of Daily hunts.) As well as a personal reflection as to their intentions in releasing the content verses what has happened.
In times of tension, Yoshida has made comprehensive responses to hot-topic issues in the past, and I personally feel that this issue, above all others currently, deserves such a response.
Again, Enkrateia, thank you for your response and good luck with your work.
So resetting's against the rules now?
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08-07-2014, 04:28 AMHyrist
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08-07-2014, 04:28 AMElim
Hmmm...I wonder if that guy who was griefing hunts on my server could have been reported then? He'd try to prevent S ranks from being spawned. He'd pull early or reset a mob over and over and over...basically as much as possible. The resetting doesn't cause that much of an issue unless it was an S rank, since they can "cul" aka vanish from the screen.
For example, he'd hear that everyone was trying to fail the FATE in camp bluefrog in order to try to spawn the S rank there. He'd run to the FATE and wait for the very last second to hand in the items and complete it. Then he'd brag and laugh about it. Like I said, he did it as often as possible. I haven't been hunting lately so I'm not sure if he's still spending his entire day griefing hunts or not anymore.
For me personally, I didn't really care that much because I don't need to hunt for upgrades. For others though, boy were they mad and I kinda felt sorry for them. -
08-07-2014, 04:30 AMispanoWhat? No, the zerg has no "rights" in this situation, especially concerning A and B ranks. If a person or group is there already, the zerg resetting or attempting for their own greed, is ALL on them. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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08-07-2014, 04:32 AMThayos
Thanks for the official post!
My takeaway from this is that any reset could potentially be ruled as disruption, but that not all of them are, and this depends on the intent of the person resetting.
If the person is doing the reset with the goal of trolling other hunters, then this could be ruled a violation. Proof of this might be resetting NMs repeatedly, resetting NMs despite party members being present, resetting mobs and then bragging about trolling, etc.
Or, if the person is doing the reset with the goal of helping more people get credit, then this could be ruled a non-violation, because the user intent isn't to grief or troll.
This seems very adult and common-sense to me. It's what I've thought all along, too.
A comment on this... It was recently stated that none of this content is currently tuned for solo players, so my personal feeling is parties have more of a "right" here than soloers (hence why not even rewards are tuned for solo play). This doesn't excuse behavior with the intent on griefing soloers, but soloers shouldn't mistake a reset to help others with an attempt at causing grief.Quote:
What? No, the zerg has no "rights" in this situation, especially concerning A and B ranks. If a person or group is there already, the zerg resetting or attempting for their own greed, is ALL on them. Period.
If a hunter is running up to an elite mark and sees that it has already been pulled, and there's a crowd of players around it -- and the hunter's party is still on the way -- then the hunter may attempt a reset without even realizing a soloer (or duo, or whatever) pulled the mob. Why should that be a thought, anyway, when this content has been officially designated as party content? -
08-07-2014, 04:47 AMWelsper59Honestly, that's a rather horrible justification for someone to believe. I'd say every single time this is done, it's because the person doing it has their own personal reasons for doing so. People like to justify this by saying "everyone can get credit then", which is 100% false. It's not that "everyone" can get credit, it's so that their personal group can get credit. Would they rage at the fact that the solo player who would have gotten full credit prior to reset, now only received 1/10 of it? Of course not. What about the group that initially fought it, only to have the horde show up to reset it and instantly kill it, thus resulting in the original group not receiving full credit? Again, of course these folks that view resets as an acceptable thing would not rage for their sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thayos
It's always under the pretense of "the greater good" type of mentality, but when the greater good is your own, there's something wrong there. It's amazing how narrow-minded a lot of folks are about this, but I guess when you only care about yourself or those you personally know, ignoring everyone else, it's not unusual to see it that way. In the case of hunts, intentional resets because of reward credit is never a purely positive thing. There is always going to be someone that gets screwed over (or at least annoyed or a feeling of someone trying to take their reward away from them) in some way, and they are 100% justified to think so when the people that do it, really don't care how you feel about it or what your final resulting reward may be. -
08-07-2014, 05:06 AMHyristYou're missing the point. The mechanics should never put the question of "The Needs of The Many Vs The Rights of the Few" into an actual mechanical debate. Here, it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by ispano
While B ranks were initially designed Solo, they have since been adjusted, as have A ranks which were never "Solo" content so much as they were designed to be accomplished with an Impromptu Party. The HP on these monsters have since been scaled up with anticipation of higher participation, but still are vastly outnumbered by the interested parties.
The soloist and the zerg all have their own intent for a design that was left far too open for its own good. But never should the soloist be punished for hitting the content early, nor the content so rare as to punish the majority for the zeal of a few. As it stands, both are encouraged to act against the other to the great consequence to the other. Regardless of the rules or moral standing, it's a design flaw to enable such things.
There have been many suggestions to alleviate this matter, from changing how participation is counted, to spawn rates, to changing the monsters to a semi-instanced version, but all were not met thus far with silence. I believe the issue, from the design standpoint, should be addressed. -
08-07-2014, 05:14 AMKazumacI don't agree with that 100%. I typically tackle b ranks with a small group of friends (think light party, sometimes without a tank). I've had people show up halfway through and reset despite me asking them not to do so. Then their massive LS nearly insta kills it and I get 1 seal etc. for all our effort. While a greater number of people gain seals, I still feel this is harassment of my smaller group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thayos
I would agree with Hyrist above with a larger look into a system where this in fighting won't occur because right now it's POV A vs POV B and both sides have valid points. -
08-07-2014, 05:26 AMThayosFor sure. The fact that both "sides" can feel griefed by the other -- even when no real violations have occurred -- is unfortunate.Quote:
I would agree with Hyrist above with a larger look into a system where this in fighting won't occur because right now it's POV A vs POV B and both sides have valid points.
In the meantime, though, people just need to use their heads and treat each other better. We've now had an official moderator join this thread and NOT tell us that all resets are violations. That should help us make progress. -
08-07-2014, 06:13 AMEidolon
I appreciate the GMs stepping up to say what everyone needed clarification on. This subject is almost what I feared it was - a huge moral grey area. The good natured people that reset in an effort to help others hopefully won't get caught in a crossfire for those who grief others.
For my own part? I will probably stop resetting. I would prefer not to leave an moral amiguity to my own actions and give the GMs more work than necessary having to rifle through false reports.
It also just leaves me feeling safer because as I said before - the implication of hurting one group to help another does not sit well with me. -
08-07-2014, 06:24 AMAegis
If I can give a counter-example, on our server there is a GC called, let's say, Unique/Untradeable. They make their gil by selling Turn 5 clears and Primal wins. Hunts have reduced their customer base. Now, they run to every NM pop they can and claim it as soon as one of them arrives, regardless of how many people are there. The mob reacts as it always has, by swearing at the puller but attacking anyway because they don't want to lose credit.
Often, someone will reset the NM. I have never once seen the puller criticised in game, but U/U get cussed and blisted out the wazoo.
Yet on the forums everyone appears to think the deserter is the griefer, not the person denying hundreds of people a chance to get seals.
Bear in mind, this FC does nothing to pop the NMs and often causes those who find/pop it to get minimum rewards as the rest of the group wasn't there. Their only purpose is to make it harder for people to get seals.