WTF WHMs?

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Originally Posted by Whatley

Part of a Bard's business is to help out the group, which includes the healers when they are low on mp. Otherwise why would Bards have Mage's Ballad if no one needs it? After reading the replies here and some of the posts in the DPS forums, it seems that the only songs people want are Foe Requiem and Swiftsong.

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Because you have other useful buffs for the party rather than cater to a WHM who probably knows how to manage mana while casting holy.

If a healer starts to dps and spam holy, it means he is confident about having enough mana. You won't need to use song just for the healer. Use the dmg debuffs instead.

Rarely will any healer need song in 4mans. So don't bother unless he has like 400mp. The only time you should watch out for a healer needing song is in high level content where the healers have to heal their lives worth and dont even have the time to dps.

There aren't many times when a healer has no time to dps outside of speedruns and some very specific runs such as T2 enrage. T2 Enrage DF in particular, bards are expected to run Mage's Ballad either right away or after a few seconds of combat.

However, I do like it when the bard throws me a ballad. Yes, I can use shroud, but sometimes I'm saving shroud for a big spawn of adds (T4 as an example) and not the MP. The reason for this is because of the sheer amount of healing that is necessary in order to solo heal since once the dreads start to appear, I start healing as if I was the only healer (I was the only person healing in a few too many cases). This means I pull aggro FAST. Even without regen and Medica 2, I generally will pull every wave due to how much healing is needed to keep the tank alive solo. This means that I'm saving my shroud for that big pull. Now, on the other hand, I'll use shroud normally right near the start since I like to do some holies to try to clear away the bugs a bit.

That being said, I like it when a bard knows when the healer is dropping low because they are ready to shroud and when they are dropping low because they are expecting a song. It can be really hard to tell though if the healer can't/isn't asking.

Generally though, if I need song, I'm going to be down about 2.5-3k MP (out of about 4-5k). Meaning I'll be around 1.5k MP. And I'll be sitting either around there or dropping down towards 0 for a bit. On the other hand, if I'm planning to shroud, I generally will dip down to about 1.5k and then go back upwards.

I know one of my Bard friends does this: If the healer mp drops below a certain point, he'll use the song. If the healer's mp starts to really go up, he'll end the song.

Usually requiem is your top priority song if there's at least one magical DD in your group. Requiem has the bonus of not lowering your own damage too. Paeon is useful if you have for example two BRDs and are doing big pulls which you'll AoE down. Swiftsong is great between pulls (I use it as soon as the last mob dies to save MP and make sure I'm not running to next group with requiem up...or aggro the colibris in longstop...). For ballad, it's usually a good idea to use it if the healer has died (especially if they're WHM and don't have shroud up) or has to raise many party members.

Ballad has its uses, especially when learning new content or running some difficult instances with solo healer. We use ballad regularly in turns 5 and 7, for example. It's just not needed for content where people know what they're doing and are overgeared for, such as level 50 dungeons, usually.

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Originally Posted by Whatley

To the people that think this thread is about yelling at WHMs to not do damage, you are wrong. It is about the useage of mana. I don't mind if a WHM dps' as long as they are able to keep the party alive as well.



Part of a Bard's business is to help out the group, which includes the healers when they are low on mp. Otherwise why would Bards have Mage's Ballad if no one needs it? After reading the replies here and some of the posts in the DPS forums, it seems that the only songs people want are Foe Requiem and Swiftsong.

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Mage's Ballad is the first song I believe you get as a BRD. And as such, its infinitely usefull in lvl 40+ dungeons, etc with light parties. But If you have several caster dps in a full party, where MP isn't an issue, the need for foe requiem is magnitudes greater than mage's ballad. Unless we are talking about turn 2 ADS. There are situations of course where mage's ballad is essential.

I'd also like to point out that Holy is our most potent damage spell as well. Stone II is 170 single target. Holy is 200 AoE + Stun. It's just a better spell for damage.

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

I'd also like to point out that Holy is our most potent damage spell as well. Stone II is 170 single target. Holy is 200 AoE + Stun. It's just a better spell for damage.

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how are you quantifying "better spell for damage"? Here's some napkin math...

single target stone 2 spam: 170 potency at 159 mp ---> 1.07 p/mp and 63.6 mp/s
single target holy spam: 200 potency at 532 mp ---> 0.38 p/mp and 152 mp/s

Potency compared to time executed would be 1.07*63.6 = 68.15 p/s (stone 2) and 0.38*152 = 57.75 p/s (holy). Sooooo stone 2 is technically (albeit negligibly) more efficient than holy for single target dps based on potency, mp, and time.

for multiple targets...yeah, not even a question lol :P

At this point, since I'm only ilvl 55 and still working on getting my relic weapon, I just use holy about 4 times if there are 3+ enemies and I have breathing room to wait a while before needing to heal anyone. I don't use it much more than that so that I don't hold up the group too much between pulls. Usually what I'll do is put up a few aeros to give the tank a chance to get a decent lead on enmity (preferably with stoneskin up at the start, assuming they don't rush off to the next pull so fast I can't reapply it at the end of the previous one), stone 2 on whatever tank is focusing attacks on until he's at about 60% hp, then divine seal/regen/top off the tank to about 85%-90% hp (whatever range where regen will not overheal based on the damage being taken), then switch back to cleric stance and use a few holys, and go back to healing when needed. I try not to stand around doing nothing unless I absolutely have to focus on healing in a long boss fight.

I've been trying to gear up more with myth equipment (I only have one thing so far.), but it sometimes can be difficult to keep up with healing when tanks rush so much and do massive pulls, in the hm duty finder dungeons I've tried so far. It's frustrating being usually the only person not overgeared and struggling to keep up with speed runs, even when I say something about it. All but one time the tank just assumed a speed run without even asking if everyone is comfortable with that, and even started boss fights when I was at less than half mp (and when we had plenty of opportunity to let it refresh, i.e. not locking out mobs but rather, we could've just stood at the entrance for a minute or so with nothing around) in spite of my efforts to manage things (about the only time I overheal at all is if I have a freecure proc and want to use it before it goes away, in which case about 50% of it is actually applied, and in those situations I have no worries about pulling enmity from anything so it doesn't matter). Most of the time I get little to no consideration. One time I even got immediately kicked when I died ONCE on the second boss in copperbell hm, before I could even respawn, and I had even said at the start (as I always do for anything new) that it was my first time running hm dungeons.

I think I have healing down pretty well for the most part (though whm is my only level 50 so far), aside from learning specific timings of boss fights so I can be ready to heal or re-position ahead of time and maybe rearranging my cross bars a bit, but regardless of how on top of things I am, there comes a point where my gear just cannot keep up with how much is being pulled, and I should not be blamed/kicked for that, especially in duty finder. If it was a party finder group, that of course would be quite different as any expectations are put up for all to see, but aside from level/ilvl, there are no such requirements for duty finder that I am aware of, so I think it's ridiculous for me to take flak for it, especially considering I am often more communicative than the other players, especially the tank. These drag racing tanks pretty much only say something once we wipe due to them pulling too much, which then leads to either nonconstructive complaining, or a rage quit. Honestly I feel worse for the dps than myself when that happens because of their much longer queue times. I don't like letting people down, but in order for me to be more helpful, I need the myth and [personal] experience; I can only do a few roulettes per day right now since I only have the low level and story mode ones unlocked, and beast tribe quests don't pay out that much, so once I've exhausted those options in the day, all I have left to do is run dungeons. I guess some people just don't realize that the player base isn't stagnant, and that there are a lot of people still joining...I myself have just been playing for about a month now.

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Originally Posted by kujowaltz

how are you quantifying "better spell for damage"? Here's some napkin math...

single target stone 2 spam: 170 potency at 159 mp ---> 1.07 p/mp and 63.6 mp/s
single target holy spam: 200 potency at 532 mp ---> 0.38 p/mp and 152 mp/s

Potency compared to time executed would be 1.07*63.6 = 68.15 p/s (stone 2) and 0.38*152 = 57.75 p/s (holy). Sooooo stone 2 is technically (albeit negligibly) more efficient than holy for single target dps based on potency, mp, and time.

for multiple targets...yeah, not even a question lol :P

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Your math doesn't factor the (equivalent to) 10% potency boost from Cleric Stance.

Your final numbers are 74.8 p/s and 62.9 p/s respectively, which further swings it into Stone 2's favor exclusively for single targets.

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Originally Posted by kujowaltz

how are you quantifying "better spell for damage"? Here's some napkin math...

single target stone 2 spam: 170 potency at 159 mp ---> 1.07 p/mp and 63.6 mp/s
single target holy spam: 200 potency at 532 mp ---> 0.38 p/mp and 152 mp/s

Potency compared to time executed would be 1.07*63.6 = 68.15 p/s (stone 2) and 0.38*152 = 57.75 p/s (holy). Sooooo stone 2 is technically (albeit negligibly) more efficient than holy for single target dps based on potency, mp, and time.

for multiple targets...yeah, not even a question lol :P

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You forgot one factor.

Stun. Stone 2 doesn't stun. Stone 1 slows. Holy Stuns. Aero and Aero 2 apply DoTs.

The stun is minimal at best because of DR and the fact that even the first Stun only lasts until the second Holy comes out. That should not be a factor in deciding which spell is the best for the situation.