Question for End Game Raiding SCH (Those guys with ilvl 90 stuffs lol)

I can definitely see VIT being viable if you don't have enough HP for a specific fight, or want to cheese some mechanic. But people are vastly underestimating what a small amount of healing per heal can do over the course of a 5-10 minute encounter. But if your not pushing content and just plan on overgearing it.... then it doesn't really matter... stack dex for more dodges?

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Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

As far as AoE heal goes 50HP means alot and its almost 100 HP more for things like Medica 2, 20HP more Regen ticks, 30HP more Fairy heals, 15HP more Fairy AoE heals, And when Divine Seal is applied serve more purpose. As a Scholar you shouldn't be running out of MP even when you have to raise 3-4 times per fight, WHM only dips cause they have to raise and Shroud is lacklustre in the MP recovery department.

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Only we're talking about SCH here, not WHM; and I used Physick as the example for SCH, because it is the most potent healing spell they have; everything else on their toolbar are less potent than Physick and will benefit less from that 30 MND.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

You forget about the galvanize effect and your fairie, since this thread is about SCH end-game. That ~40 HP is actually ~80 HP (on a crit ~180 hp since the shield is doubled) half of which is never going to be over-healing (two-thirds on a crit) unless you're in the habit of over-writing your galvanize. And on top of that your fairie's heals are also bigger and can be cast in the same GCD as your Adloquium, so when you add up the amount of healing your can do in a single GCD the extra you get from that 30 MND is more than you think. It's not a huge amount, but it isn't insignificant either.

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I haven't overlooked the Fairie benefits, but I can't really comment on them right now, as I haven't done extensive testing. I plan to pull some real numbers up on this tonight. You could look at Galvanize one of two ways; either you cast it once and hope it Crits or double cast it for a chance to override it. In normal situations you wouldn't do this, because it's a waste of MP, but theoretically if your MP pool were infinite; overriding your Galvanize would be the optimal way to heal.

This is the main reason behind my end of the discussion; if we had more PIE we would heal very differently and more effectively than we do now. Obviously 30 PIE isn't enough to tip the scales, but it's a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

You mentioned the above statement as if healing will always top someone to full or over heal. If that is the case, you clearly didn't go too end game with healer enough. Try telling your healers in Twintania that they over heal 50 HP more and they should re-spec VIT or PIE. What i am trying to say is, i would rather spec to 'over heal' 50 HP more than to not spec and later have the party wipe due to falling short in healing.

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If you check the screenshot back on the first page you can see I'm decked out in Allagan healing gear that I clearly didn't get in one run, so it's safe to assume I've healed at end-game at least a moderate amount. In truth I've been healing in the Binding Coil of Bahamut as a WHM and SCH for more than three months; though I don't see what this has to do with basic math.

You mentioned Twintania, so we'll talk about her then (since people love quoting Twintania mechanics to back-up a healing arguement, as though it's the only content there is); you haven't killed Twintania, have you? I know this, because you wouldn't be questioning the value of MP if you had. Unless you're one of the few that can clear Twintania without losing a single member (that would need raising) or without using Mage Ballad (that would reduce Bard DPS and waste MP better spent on something like Foe's Requium) we can assume that MP plays a vital role here.

I would also like to double stack my Adloquium for DS, but it isn't really viable in 13 minute encounter, for MP reason.

On another note; more PIE means higher ticks from Mage Ballad.

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Originally Posted by Ymbryne

Please do not listen to the rubbish about speccing PIE instead of MND. Mind is at least 4 (some say 5) times more valuable than any of the secondary stats, and if you're really having mana issues (which you shouldn't be) then you can eat Mulled Tea for a healthy boost of +14 PIE (HQ). There is no such equivalent for Mind, remember. You are unnecessarily gimping yourself for "only 50 less heals huehue."

Heal smarter, not spammier. ~50 less HPs on your Physick means that you're casting ten Physicks to my nine Physicks to restore the same amount of HP.

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PIE is a main stat by the way, not secondary. You're about right on the 4-5 times better than any seconary stat though; Crit and DET are around 0.18-0.20 to every 1 MND. PIE however scales much better than MND does.

You're assuming healing smart and spaming heals are mutually exclusive, when you know that Galvanize overrides itself. I'm not in the habit of doing this though, because I could be waiting ages to pop a Crit on Adloquium, but if I had the MP I would do this; and so would you.

Let's not forget that the OP is talking about playing both SMN and SCH here, so regardless of what you say; MND is entirely useless to SMN and INT is entirely useless to SCH; VIT and PIE are not.

Sorry if I missed someone out, it's hard work quoting this many people! As for the OP, I'd go with whatever you think is best, given this information. It's a simple matter of taste and non of these attributes will be sorely missed. If it wasn't for the HP problems, most good healers could heal any end-game content in their bikini; stats mean very little to a healer in comparison to their DPS and tank counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Ashira

I haven't overlooked the Fairie benefits, but I can't really comment on them right now, as I haven't done extensive testing. I plan to pull some real numbers up on this tonight. You could look at Galvanize one of two ways; either you cast it once and hope it Crits or double cast it for a chance to override it. In normal situations you wouldn't do this, because it's a waste of MP, but theoretically if your MP pool were infinite; overriding your Galvanize would be the optimal way to heal.

This is the main reason behind my end of the discussion; if we had more PIE we would heal very differently and more effectively than we do now. Obviously 30 PIE isn't enough to tip the scales, but it's a step in the right direction.

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So you admit your entire argument is based around a theoretical infinite or 'high enough that it's the same thing' mp pool that is impossible to actually reach. I.e. 30 points in PIE is not worth putting points into as it stands. A step in the right direction doesn't help when it doesn't actually achieve anything.

He also directed his inquiry to "end game raiding SCH". Trying to play both SMN and SCH efficiently != gimping both classes so you can be a mediocre of both.

25 MND, 3 Vit, 2 piety

yeah going to main sch gonna go 30mnd and just use my smn to fate and que for lower end dungs the -30int wouldnt be a big deal then. Looking foward tio end game raiding as a sch =D thanks for all the feedback

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

So you admit your entire argument is based around a theoretical infinite or 'high enough that it's the same thing' mp pool that is impossible to actually reach. I.e. 30 points in PIE is not worth putting points into as it stands. A step in the right direction doesn't help when it doesn't actually achieve anything.

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If or not you can reach the desired amount of MP to pull off double stacking adloquium is at the moment just a theory, since I haven't tested it enough to call it more effective; and there are far more factors at play to take into consideration; such as Crit ratio and of course MND and/or healing potency. The only part of this that isn't a theory is that more MP would make make your healing more effective; I just haven't come up with a number yet or if that number is even attainable.

Of course, shoot me down for thinking outside of the box and trying something different. I'd say to each their own, but go ahead and tell the OP he is wrong to stack anything but MND with his attribute points, and you'll boot him out of your group for anything otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Ymbryne

He also directed his inquiry to "end game raiding SCH". Trying to play both SMN and SCH efficiently != gimping both classes so you can be a mediocre of both.

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Gimping sounds little harsh. The truth of the matter is, those points mean next to nothing. Do whatever you want with them Aruji. It's not going to stop you doing any content in the game as it stands, not even Twintania.

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Originally Posted by Ashira

Of course, shoot me down for thinking outside of the box and trying something different. I'd say to each their own, but go ahead and tell the OP he is wrong to stack anything but MND with his attribute points, and you'll boot him out of your group for anything otherwise.

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Drama queen much? I don't think anyone in this thread said anything about kicking people who don't have full allocation to MND as scholar. And if they did, no one took them seriously.

The 30 points that you allocate do not do anything to your fairy. You can go 30 strength for all the pet cares.

I healed every encounter in this game and have a lot of end game gear. 30 mind makes no difference at that point. Anyone who thinks 50 more healing on physik does anything with you and your pet doing 1600 a pop, please stop talking. It does not and never will do anything other than give you some more over-healing. You will spam that spell since with that gear you will never run out of mp using physik + pet embrace (macro them together if you haven't), you will overheal a ton and that 50 extra will not matter as while you're spamming that, there is no encounter in the game that requires that hps and your tank will be constantly beyond topped. When things get serious, lustrate is what saves you and it is unaffected by mind. Invest those 30 points into something useful. Managing cooldowns on your pet and aetherflow stacks is what makes you a good scholar. I bet i could heal coil in AF gear + ilvl90 weap just fine (minus twintania, and that's just because fireballs will kill me).

I play SMN as an alt so i went 10 vit and 20 int. I never looked back. Before i was running 30 vit and i can tell you, 5k hp makes some mechanics obsolete when you can just eat it and let your pet heal you up. Between 50 more on my heal and 450 hp, i'll take the later any day as i can't heal anyone dead. I also use selene for 90% of encounters. I think i only use eos for ifrit extreme and parts of turn 5. Simply because i do not need the extra healing.

A lot of people giving advice on this forum are poorly geared, poorly informed and have not done much more than 4 man content. Asking for advice here is a terrible idea; test things out yourself and use your own judgement. How many times have you wiped because you didn't heal for 50 more hp vs: someone screwed up and no heal could save them, or you ate too many aoes and forgot to heal yourself and died. I bet it's always the later 2.

It mostly boils down to bad tanks not using cooldowns when they should (mountain buster, eating a bomb, death sentence). Dps not moving out of aoes and healers blowing cooldowns at the wrong time. As a sch, put those points in vit, they will serve you better than mind, i can guarantee it.

Using DPSing as an argument is also bs, i dps titan extreme until adds and only switch out of cleric stance when other healer is jailed or for stomps. If a tank is getting low i can lustrate from cleric stance just fine or rouse my pet before a mountain buster and virus. If i healed for 50 more on physick, i'd be doing the same. I don't even bother using eos for the extra healing on anything other than ifrit extreme and some parts of turn 5.