The way of the Warrior. Mitigation fix

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Originally Posted by Kitru

And you can check all of my math in the post in my sig. I went into everything in *detail* and included all CDs and buffs. If you willingly exclude certain variables and disagree with the math that *has* included those variables, you're not really managing much consistency.

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I did check your math,

WAR (BB>BB>SE):
(((2 * (150 + 600 + 1400) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 * 2 = 1403.18 enmity potency per GCD

The math you did for Berserk still implies the 50% damage dealt increase when it's closer to 40%. I also don't see how the 5s pacification debuff gives Berserk an effective duration of 10s for Weapon Skills.

5/90 = .0555 with -100% damage dealt = -5.55% damage dealt overall for WS, add that to the 40% buff for 20/90s and you get 8.88%-5.55% or 3.33% damage increase for WS.

PLD (without WAR):
(637 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 * 2 = 1355.78 enmity potency per GCD

You have PLD averaging 637 enmity per combo instead of 683 because you are still using the Halonex3 > Fracture combo which provides less enmity even though you compared it to the WAR combo where you sacrificed Fracture use for increased enmity.

WAR (BB>BB>SE): Revised
(((2 * (150 + 600 + 1400) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0333 + 83.33 * 1.0888) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 * 2 = 1373.9 enmity potency per GCD

PLD (without WAR): Revised
(683 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 * 2 = 1436.74 enmity potency per GCD

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

The math you did for Berserk still implies the 50% damage dealt increase when it's closer to 40%. I also don't see how the 5s pacification debuff gives Berserk an effective duration of 10s for Weapon Skills.

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The post was done over a month ago when the accepted contribution from Beserk was 50%. We know now that it's 40-41%, but the entire point of that post was to prove that there wasn't an appreciable difference between WAR and PLD damage.

The 10 sec thing can best be explained this way: .5 * 20 - (1 * 5) = .5 * 10. 50% +dam for 20 seconds with 5 seconds of 100% -dam is the same, mathematically, as 10 seconds of 50% + damage.

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You have PLD averaging 637 enmity per combo instead of 683 because you are still using the Halonex3 > Fracture combo which provides less enmity even though you compared it to the WAR combo where you sacrificed Fracture use for increased enmity.

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The PLD combo wasn't really tweaked beyond the first iteration. As I said before, the primary purpose was to compare damage to damage, rather than enmity, which arose afterwards as something of a "well, it's gonna be brought up anyways".

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WAR (BB>BB>SE): Revised
(((2 * (150 + 600 + 1400) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0333 + 83.33 * 1.0888) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 * 2 = 1373.9 enmity potency per GCD

PLD (without WAR): Revised
(683 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 * 2 = 1436.74 enmity potency per GCD

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Yeah, those look to be better than mine, having corrected what you mentioned. There's probably something to be said for layering the buffs on WAR to get more out of 'em and factoring in Unchained, but it's not really going to change much of anything: WAR and PLD are still tied on damage and enmity, for all intents and purposes.

@Kitru

The only time where I'd do more than BB > SE is when I need to split threat between 2 targets. For example Turn 4 Soldier and Knights, then again you can always do Skull Sunder (Soldier) > BB (Knight) > Heavy Swing (Soldier) > Maim (Soldier) > Storm Eye (Knight) ... etc... Against single target encounters, there is zero chance a DPS will catch up at all. Probably happening if you are those full Vitality accessories tanks, but with Relic + 0 I'm already full 40% ahead of tanks, 20% ahead if the OT is crafted Accessories equipped in Sword Oath/ No Defiance.

When threat is no longer an issue, and mitigation is already sufficiently safe. I can assure you this EVERY hardcore endgame tank look towards DPS. Maybe not so much so for FF14 being that there is only soft enrage and one hard enrage.

With the lead on threat as Paladin I have the freedom to choose to Shield Swipe for more DPS. Whereas as Warrior if you have threat lead you Fracture for more DPS. And shit does start falling, Paladin can hard cast Stoneskin whereas Warrior.... well lets say they stand there and be ornamental-ly pretty for the impending dirt nap.

remove damage debuff from defiance more damage dealt = more self healing, increase its healing increase to 4% per stack now 20% over the current 15%, make unchained a non wrath based ability that gives 50% increased inner beast healing on next usage CD 1 minute, Increase Storm paths healing to 150% of damage inflicted and make the regular duration of blood bath 30 seconds, and the passive increase its healing to 50% of all damage done... Change steel cyclone to have a 35%hp drain per target hit instead of the old bonus. There now warrior is fixed and no major changes needed, it put me in awe how a class made to heal on damage done, actually gets its damage lowered by defiance, doesnt that kill its own mechanic?

while your at it, make our brutal swing cooldown 15 seconds so we are more in line to the paladin stun, make same change to paladin and put it off global cooldown aswell... both classes will appreciate it i bet, since sometimes paladins miss the stun since its on GCD from other abilities.

now to recap on what warriors would gain from this change:

no more damage reduction from defiance = 25% more damage and self healing
+25% self healing from bloodbath
+100% self healing from Storm path
+50% more healing from Inner beast on demand with a Long Cooldown (this will be your big Single target heal)
+35% heal per target hit With steel cyclone (this will be your aoe Self heal for those pesky groups of trash mobs the more around you the more you heal)

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The 10 sec thing can best be explained this way: .5 * 20 - (1 * 5) = .5 * 10. 50% +dam for 20 seconds with 5 seconds of 100% -dam is the same, mathematically, as 10 seconds of 50% + damage.

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Ah yeah I get it now, herp derp. I just never thought about wording it that way so I was confused when you mentioned it but it makes sense now. Like 40% damage for 20s with 5 seconds of 100% - damage is the same as 7.5 seconds of 40%:
.4 * 20 - (1 * 5) = .4 * 7.5. All coming together now.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The PLD combo wasn't really tweaked beyond the first iteration. As I said before, the primary purpose was to compare damage to damage, rather than enmity, which arose afterwards as something of a "well, it's gonna be brought up anyways".

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True, but sacrificing Fracture from your rotation would only bring your average potency per GCD from 205 to 203.33 so it's only an .8% loss in DPS. Even less once you factor in Spirit's/Circle/AutoAttack so I'd say for the noticeable increase in enmity generation it's a fair trade.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

True, but sacrificing Fracture from your rotation would only bring your average potency per GCD from 205 to 203.33 so it's only an .8% loss in DPS. Even less once you factor in Spirit's/Circle/AutoAttack so I'd say for the noticeable increase in enmity generation it's a fair trade.

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Agreed. The same is pretty much true of Fracture for WAR as well. I don't bother using Fracture on PLD or WAR because of that.

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Originally Posted by Warthain

now to recap on what warriors would gain from this change:

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It wouldn't fix anything. The WAR problem isn't that self-healing isn't high enough, which is all you're changing. The problem is that self healing doesn't scale with incoming damage, so it's awesome in 4 man content and terrible in 8 man content. On top of that, the WAR CD suite is *absolutely terrible* and increasing Bloodbath's healing doesn't really do much for WAR especially since you're also making it better for PLD.

Furthermore, Defiance has the damage penalty on it because it is a *tank stance*. It increases your survivability at the cost of damage. Considering how little healing you actually get from Bloodbath and Storm's Path (and how little you would continue to get with them even with your changes), the loss of self healing from Defiance is negligible (Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone both already ignore the damage penalty from Defiance). If it didn't have the damage penalty, unless you remove the high enmity attribute from it as well, it would give WAR massive enmity and damage advantages over PLD and, given that those are the most balanced parts of the tank classes, you're simply screwing things up more. Also, if there is no drawback to Defiance and there is no other stance to enter, it just becomes a stance you have active at all times; what is the point of even having it? At that point, it would make more sense for Defiance to just become a passive attribute of WARs and then replace it with an ability that actually provides an option rather than a trait masquerading as a ability.

Basically, your changes would make WAR insanely good for 4 man content, which WAR is already plenty good for, and still utterly horrible at 8 man content. They're poorly thought out and completely ignorant of what WAR's problems *actually* are.

not thought out you say, but both classes should feel completly different, paladin is a defensive tank focused on defence, while warrior is an offensive tank focused on dealing damage and recovering hp from it, both tanks are nothing alike and should not even be on same scale of damage, warriors should be doing damage near dragoon and pugilist damage levels, all i did was improve its damage and self healing from its damage abilities which are or should be the main aspects of this class, i give him more self healing to recover from spikes, and improved bloodbath enough to make it at least provide better numbers from each hit which isnt bad and will add up fast, paladin would only see the bloodbath improve to 30 secs still at 25% drain, normal inner beast already does around 2.5k healing when properly chained with healing buffs. With my buff it would push it over 3.5k heal on demand, thats a lot and will be extremely usefull to recover fast from stuff like death sentence on coil turn 5.

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Originally Posted by Warthain

warriors should be doing damage near dragoon and pugilist damage levels

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As soon as you said that, you lost *all* credibility.

a dragoon in a perfect combo setup with full DL and relic+1 crits mobs in Ak for 950-1100 dmg... my warrior with defiance turned off and berserking can crit up to 750-850 dmg with just garuda weapon and full DL, we already see similar dmg to Dps classes more so if i actually get relic +1 on him aswell, so my credibility stands, youre the one that doesnt know what warriors can do on live servers right now.