Say what? Those are posts about 1 roll vs. multi rolls and ordering of combat events. It has nothing to do with WAR mitigation. WAR's are at a huge disadvantage because of the nature of the PLD mitigation. It is permanent and more substantial than the benefits a WAR receives from Defiance. If you look at IB as a CD, which I do and feel is most appropriate, the disparity increases because IB really pales in comparison to the CDs a PLD has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taemek
"Fix Warrior" Threads
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10-08-2013, 01:42 AMCoramac
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10-08-2013, 02:02 AMEhayteThat would not work. Something that is doing 350dps (referenced above) would be doing a much higher amount to any one of the dps or caster classes due to armor, mitigation, cool downs, etc, and they wouldn't be able to hold enmity, which is more important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinch
I have been a proponent of a WAR buff for a while, if they could bring that break even point up to something like 450dps would that make a difference? And to my other point, are there any fights where the boss doesn't hit extraordinarily hard, but does a lot of AE damage in Coil? -
10-08-2013, 02:07 AMHachikoI think you're confused. Both of those posts have only to do with the ordering of abilities, not that the difference in passive mitigation is negligible, because it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taemek
Block is a significant increase in mitigation against blockable attacks. More importantly though, blocking pushes critical hits off the table due to it being a multi-roll table (which I think is what we all agree on now). So not only will a PLD mitigate more hits via block, they will suffer less crits because they do so.
And to add on to that, the only thing it was showing was the actual parry rate of PLD and WAR are the same in equal gear, ideally putting to rest any silly arguments that WAR gets more out of parry, or that WAR has some super secret class specific parry formula. This may be where you got confused.
If you can actually find anyone with "hard numbers" showing why WAR are just as easy to keep up, or only negligibly different, I'd like to see them because that is in direct conflict with what I found.
I'm considering doing some sort of theorycraft for everything. Estimating block damage reduction, Estimating parry damage reduction, and looking at Rage of Halone STR reduction. But the fact of the matter is, WAR already requires about 10% more healing before you look at these things once you get to the end-est game stuff. And they work out to significant amounts of mitigation (~5% for block, ~5%(?) for Rage of Halone, and some additional reduction and additional stability by making crits less likely).
Where are your "hard numbers" that the difference is negligible?
The problem is that even if you tried to cater a boss fight specifically to a WAR, a PLD would still be sufficient if not easier to tank it. For example, a low damage boss that does a lot of AOE damage. Sure, a WAR would be sufficient for this with their self heals that could compete with Shield Oath in this specific instance. However, a PLD would be sufficient too because they are still reducing the damage taken, and because in general the aoe heals plus a couple spot regens will keep them up about as well as a WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
The only encounter where WAR is argued for sometimes is Turn 4 because there are many adds involved. But in general it's easily managed by a PLD and the PLD is more likely to survive the damage taken. -
10-08-2013, 02:20 AMConna
When people say warrior is fine they either A. play gladiator and for some strange reason don't want to see their co-tank partner made an equal. Else they are B. unaware. The problem with warrior isn't a perception its based on the opinion of every end game healer and every conscientious end game tank. You may think, A. If you die its the healers fault or B. If you didn't die its, because you're awesome. However in reality your survival is based on both your capabilities and the healers and warrior contributes almost nothing to its own survival. If you didn't die as a warrior its once again the healer.
After reading yoshi's statement I laughed, because if hes played warrior he obviously is suffering from dumb tank syndrome and recommend he play a healer for a warrior in titan and coil then paladin and tell us how he feels after "real" experience instead of simply looking at hypothetical outcomes presented in data. -
10-08-2013, 02:36 AMEhayteWell, I was going off the assumption that the previous statement of a WAR being superior if incoming DPS is below 350 as true. If that were the case, than it WOULD be easier to heal the WAR, as we are assuming. Meaning PLD would NOT be as good for this, as the healer would need to focus on healing the PLD more than the WAR, and potentially let a DPS die. I apologize for not making that assumption clear, but saying OK, WAR is a better tank in this situation, but PLD is a better tank in this situation, doesn't make sense : DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
I'm not saying its good as-is, but looking at how each tank tanks (I am leveling a WAR currently and starting to get the hang of how it works) it would seem that if they make the right fixes and the content is built right, there should be a significant and strategic advantage to using one tank or the other. I am pretty much just speculating and asking questions. I felt I needed to respond to this as you didn't really address my question, quoted me, and straw-manned by point. Sorry : D -
10-08-2013, 02:46 AMDagimp007
TO be honest i think there is a simple way to improve warriors... com up with an item to put in the of hand slot, make the item have some vit and dex, and maybe acc... call it be like a laso that "attaches" to the great axe, or have it be our tomahawk, with the tomahawk it would auto make us do more damage while giving us a little more EHP. with the tomahawk we would be the tank hat does more damage yet have a relative EHP, dont get me wrong healers still would need to not be lazy and heal us to make our EHP stay up but its an option.
Implementing wise simply add it in with e Darklight gear so you have to be lvl 50 and its to help even the feild at 50 since before Coil wars and pallies are equal. -
10-08-2013, 02:57 AMHachikoI know what you were trying to point out. The problem is the DPS threshhold is so low for when a PLD overtakes a WAR in terms of "regular" mitigation, that if you go that low on a PLD the healers will have absolutely no problem healing a paladin in such a situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
Basically I'm not saying a WAR is a BETTER tank in a situation with a generally low dps boss, but rather that it will be trivially easy to keep a Paladin tank up on such a low dps boss given the gear requirements of Coil in general. I'm sorry you felt I straw manned your post, but you basically posited a situation where healing the tank would be so trivial for either tank that it really wouldn't matter.
And that's the point. The only time a WAR is going to be better than a PLD is in a situation where damage on the tank is trivial, and if damage on the tank is trivial it doesn't matter which job is tanking it. -
10-08-2013, 03:02 AMEhayteGotcha - does anyone have a good feel for what the break even point would need to move to to make it worth it? Like I asked in a previous post where I threw out the number 450?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
I am only being so persistent on this issue because I have played a PLD up to the HM primals and I find it extraordinarily boring, but I find WAR at level 36ish very very fun and engaging. I'd love to main the WAR, and will move it up to 50, but I will need to eventually make mytho tombstone decisions: focus a few on DPS for war, or stay all VIT/parry for PLD. -
10-08-2013, 03:05 AMLeiron
I am sure you can take a Warrior all the way to endgame, but you would need to be very, very well geared.
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10-08-2013, 03:07 AMoceanlordyou will want crafted set to optimze a warriorQuote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte