What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Disappointing, but not surprising. The Scions have always been varying levels of zealots towards Hydaelyn. Even after discovering they were primals, Y'shtola insisted Zodiark was the more dangerous of the two. These are the same people who glossed over the fact that Hydaelyn told Minfilia to kill herself and then abandoned her in the aetherial sea until she offered herself up as a vessel. (The actual quote from Minfilia is, "There, adrift and alone, Her voice silent once more, I prayed...")

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I think they’re issue with it began and ended with Minfilias thoughts on the matter, where she showed no ill will towards Hydaelyn for it, nor blame. Not to mention the fact that Hydaelyns silence was not some manipulation, but a product of her weakened state. Minfilia knew this and that’s why she freely choose to do what she did.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I wonder how much aether it takes Hydaelyn just to communicate briefly from the Aetherial Sea? She constantly talks about being to weak, but then she claims to have kept enough on reserve just to fight test WoL (as if all their trials were not proof enough) and then there's the Mother Crystal which we find out is just an accumulation of aether that build up over thousands of years. Was she just that averse in using those sources?

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Give that using the reserve killed her, and the Mothercrystal was intended to ensure we could reach Meteion, I’d say being averse a wise decision.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Its a bit crazy to me that you thing thats wrong, preventing a species from killing itself.

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I like how you could easily say this in defense of the Sundering. xD

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I think they’re issue with it began and ended with Minfilias thoughts on the matter, where she showed no ill will towards Hydaelyn for it, nor blame. Not to mention the fact that Hydaelyns silence was not some manipulation, but a product of her weakened state. Minfilia knew this and that’s why she freely choose to do what she did.

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The patch art certainly doesn't help make it look any less sinister:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaP_wu5XEAEOShj.jpg:large

Though even putting aside Minfilia, the Sundering was in itself a non-consensual act so we know that Venat doesn't care much for the concept of free will. Let us not forget that by Venat's own admission during the cutscene at the end of Anamnesis Anyder her faction was very much a minority.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I like how you could easily say this in defense of the Sundering. xD

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You're free to claim as much but I disagree. Venat was not only withholding key information from her people but she actively served as a subversive saboteur. Her actions only served to benefit the Sundered, rather than her own people...and even then, she inflicted untold levels of suffering upon the Sundered as a consequence of her decision. As she herself admits, there was no kindness or justice in the tragedy she wrought.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

We were forced to perceive their entire civilization would crumble if she brought attention to it. Paradise falling apart if you will. Square spun us a web and we were expected to accept it 100%.

She had a lot of options and she chose one that would impact generations of people. Essentially, she chose to play god. That is wrong on so many levels.

Again though, I can't critique too heavily. Square approached a lot of sensitive topics here (Time travel, space travel, etc), things they shouldn't have. But they're not in the graveyard like another MMO's story. Ending a story isn't easy.

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Okay so what else could or should she have done within the limits of the story?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

You're free to claim as much but I disagree. Venat was not only withholding key information from her people but she actively served as a subversive saboteur. Her actions only served to benefit the Sundered, rather than her own people...and even then, she inflicted untold levels of suffering upon the Sundered as a consequence of her decision. As she herself admits, there was no kindness or justice in the tragedy she wrought.

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You are in a situation where people still believes Covid 19 is fake and you are expecting Venut can do a really good job convincing her people on something only she remembers?
/clap

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Okay so what else could or should she have done within the limits of the story?

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Any number of things, given that her own world view was supposedly a belief that there was no such thing as 'impossible'. Not only had she successfully put a tracker on Meteion during the confrontation with Hermes, she had already confirmed the existence of witnesses to Hermes having sent his flock of Meteion's on their mission. Furthermore, using a variant of the Echo Venat was able to glean valuable insight by tapping into the memories of an event which helped show the Warrior of Light what had transpired.

If that isn't enough? Both Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus were aware that their memories had been tampered with. They simply didn't know what, exactly, the missing memories were. Yet even in the face of being told of the threat of the Final Days at the hands of a time traveller, before his memory was wiped...Emet-Selch stated outright that it was his duty to investigate any threat to the Star. With that in mind, then, it felt rather forced for Venat to conveniently avoid going to the Convocation with information that could have helped avert the disaster.

Given that a Sundered Zodiark was able to hold the Final Days at bay for so long, one can only imagine how much longer an Unsundered variant would have been able to do so - and with extra time and Venat not deliberately holding back knowledge, it doesn't strike me as a stretch for the Convocation, Venat and Azem to come to some sort of beneficial solution given enough time.

Much like how things play out in the Sundered world given that even where problems arise, the solution isn't to rid the populace of their free will, memories and right to choose...

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You are in a situation where people still believes Covid 19 is fake and you are expecting Venut can do a really good job convincing her people on something only she remembers?
/clap

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Venat was a highly respected figure within the Ancient world. Had she been open and honest, there would be little reason to doubt her words. Yet even so, no society is obligated to bend over backwards to appease the likes of Venat and Hermes when their 'solution' is to wipe out their own race and civilisation.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

She didnt seek out people and inform them of what was happening. Instead, she did the very thing youre bashing the occuria for, she took control of her own peoples lives and shattered them. She didnt give them the chance they deserved, and then continue to preach about suffering and learning to walk. Shes a hypocrite, shes a manipulator, and shes for all intents and purposes imo a monster.

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We don't know for sure what she did. That's one issue with that cutscene. It was dramatic but very stylized. It goes in a few steps from Hyth going off to get sacrificed to people begging Zodiark to restore the world they had. So the timing is very much not real time. I hope if they do end up going back to the Ancients in either MSQ or side quests, we get more exposition on that. There's also a question of what Azem was up to away from both summonings.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Okay so what else could or should she have done within the limits of the story?

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It's probably better if another poster gives this a shot but I'll try.

Imagine if you go back in time and meet Venat. You do your adventures and stuff. Then you find out about Hermes, drama, Emet-Selch, etc etc, and stuff. After it's all said and done, Venat says point blank, "I'm going to decide everyone's future."

She chose, all alone, to dictate the future of all mankind and Etheirys. I'm sorry, but that's not how things roll no matter how fantastical things are. At that point she should have become a villain. We should have fought her. And the game would've lasted 10 times longer. Keep in mind, that would also mean everything we had done up to that point is meaningless.

Thankfully, but not so thankfully, Square forced a viewpoint on us. They made us accept our new godmother and move on with life.

No one should be allowed to dictate anyone's future. This is in part why Square should've left time travel alone. We would've been better off thinking Hydaelyn as an altruistic being and Zodairk as an all evil being. Square crossed boundaries they shouldn't have.

In the end, we have what we have. All we can do is be disgruntled or satisfied about it. Considering I'm the former, I can only hope Square never pulls this crap again.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You are in a situation where people still believes Covid 19 is fake and you are expecting Venut can do a really good job convincing her people on something only she remembers?
/clap

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If only in this fantasy universe there was something that could show people visions of the past... Oh, if only the person holding vital information about events to come would be versed in sharing such visions with people, especially with those whom have already acted upon such far-fetched stories in the past, prior to losing those memories...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Venat was a highly respected figure within the Ancient world. Had she been open and honest, there would be little reason to doubt her words. Yet even so, no society is obligated to bend over backwards to appease the likes of Venat and Hermes when their 'solution' is to wipe out their own race and civilization.

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Said civilization had zero qualms about throwing away half their population twice over and were perfectly willing to commit genocide of every new life born into the world just so they wouldn't have to feel sorrow or despair and recluse themselves into ignorant bliss of "paradise". The rest of the Ancient population making decisions aren't exactly of high standing moral character either.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They all originate from said "civilisations". The chair exists for the very reason that the Convocation wanted to understand what is going on in the broader star to orient its decisions, so that is a bizarre claim. Hades himself had a background as someone who travelled a lot. It's not that the other seat occupants did not necessarily travel, but that that seat (Azem) was dedicated to it for the purpose of providing them information. The other seats all had their own spheres of expertise and responsibilities, like any real government. You're inventing a caricature.

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There's no guarantee they had to listen to Azem. They didn't in the island story. Azem went against their decision to save innocent people the Convocation was just going to let die.

"The island had one village upon it, and a wealth of fertile farmland─all of which would soon be lost. But that was simply the way of the world. As in many such cases, our role was merely to acknowledge the fact. The islanders would do the same, and those who deemed it prudent had likely already begun to move elsewhere. While it was true that the Convocation intended to discuss the matter, the conclusion would be no less inevitable."

The Ancients may have held funeral rites and respected deaths but their folly was complacency.