Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

We were told (paraphrasing) that we were being brought down to a baseline in Stormblood so that the devs could build us up from the ground up. Hasn't really happened, or it has and a decent part of the player base simply doesn't agree with the result or like it.

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Delay is the most effective form of denial.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Found the non-healer main.

The issues with healers have been present in this game for years. The complaints have been present for years. From casual healers and raid healers alike. Healers are allowed to express their dissatisfaction with their main role, just like tanks and DPS are. Adding additional DPS options/rotations will have no effect on the “pure healers” or those who don’t even participate in the role, so not sure why you’re so upset about us voicing our opinion.

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Sorry healer mains you have to step aside for another Kaiten thread, can’t have healers complaining about anything

Never forget...

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Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Never forget...

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The truth? Fair

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Originally Posted by vetch

Delay is the most effective form of denial.

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off topic vetch but your profile pic is the most cursed thing Ive ever seen

If White Mage could have the option to use the built up Blood Lilies to perform the PvP flower cannon attack forPvE content, that would be great. I love that attack and I just wanna spam it in PvE somehow and have more use for Blood Lilies besides healing.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

The truth?

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You got it in one, hussy.
It's true: the healer role has been neglected for so long that the cracks are showing and YoshiP is starting to run out of excuses.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

You got it in one, hussy.
It's true: the healer role has been neglected for so long that the cracks are showing and YoshiP is starting to run out of excuses.

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Yeah, and he needs to come up with an answer or else they’ll lose subscribe by a thousand cuts. Literally listen to healers and don’t downplay them; there’s an ENTIRE FRICKIN’ THREAD dedicated to what healers want(though some of it in the OP in that thread is a bit on the deep end imo and asks for too much).

Healing in FF14 feels better than any other MMO I have healed in (and I have healed in ever major MMO)

99% of the complaints seem to come from people that haven't healed in an MMO before this one.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

Healing in FF14 feels better than any other MMO I have healed in (and I have healed in ever major MMO)

99% of the complaints seem to come from people that haven't healed in an MMO before this one.

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The statement is your personal opinion, for which we can't conclude anything since (a) by definition it's subjective and (2) that experience may or may not really be extensive.
The second statement is again your personal opinion, and it's easy enough to exaggerate, but it's harder to make the effort to back up. Where do you come up with this figure of "99 %"? I don't see that at all, given easily hundreds of posts, you're saying that only 1 in a hundred have any prior experience healing?

No thanks, I believe you have an overexaggerated opinion of your experience if your really believe what you wrote.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

Healing in FF14 feels better than any other MMO I have healed in (and I have healed in ever major MMO)

99% of the complaints seem to come from people that haven't healed in an MMO before this one.

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sure am glad I haven't healed in any other major mmos then, because healing in this one is dogshit compared to itself 5 years ago lol

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

Healing in FF14 feels better than any other MMO I have healed in (and I have healed in ever major MMO)

99% of the complaints seem to come from people that haven't healed in an MMO before this one.

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Uh huh. I've healed in FFXIV, WoW, ESO, and some few Korean MMO who aren't even big enough to name save maybe ArcheAge and AA was mainly PvP. There are plenty of other healers who have much more extensive profiles than mine even going back to Ultima Online, Swtor, Ever Quest and so on.

Just because FFXIV's healers in some respects are better than other MMOs does not mean that it isn't bad or worse than others. WoW for instance has better DISTINCT healers with different healing styles than FFXIV by MILES. You can even compare FFXIV to itself when its PvP has better defined healers than its PvE.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

Healing in FF14 feels better than any other MMO I have healed in (and I have healed in ever major MMO)

99% of the complaints seem to come from people that haven't healed in an MMO before this one.

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If it feels better than other MMOs, it doesn't necessarily mean it is better than other MMOs.

And I did play a healer build in GW2's Engineer before FF14. Sure, not the same, but it definitely felt far more engaging and the gimmicks were way more interesting and creative than what FF14 has, especially nowadays. 14's healing is basic and straightforward, and while there's nothing wrong with that approach (and actually makes things easier to grasp), it doesn't mean it's engaging.

And I look at older MMOs and the way they made their healers, and they for sure manage to do things differently and interestingly than anything Square's ever willing to try. A healer that makes use of damaging skills to heal people was something people asked for years ago, and the best they can give us is Kardia.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Uh huh. I've healed in FFXIV, WoW, ESO, and some few Korean MMO who aren't even big enough to name save maybe ArcheAge and AA was mainly PvP. There are plenty of other healers who have much more extensive profiles than mine even going back to Ultima Online, Swtor, Ever Quest and so on.

Just because FFXIV's healers in some respects are better than other MMOs does not mean that it isn't bad or worse than others. WoW for instance has better DISTINCT healers with different healing styles than FFXIV by MILES. You can even compare FFXIV to itself when its PvP has better defined healers than its PvE.

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ESO healing is 99% DPSing across 6-8 spells and 2 ULTs. You can't even target your healing spells. A good chunk of the spells that sit on your hotbars are never used, and they exist purely to provide boosts to the other spells (or speed up your ULT generation)

WOW nowadays is just a spam heal. It isn't engaging. You are busy healing, but nothing feels 'great' to heal.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

but nothing feels 'great' to heal

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That sounds to me like you prefer old-school style healing, where you see the person's health bar shoot up and have high numbers?

At least, that's one of two things people refer to when they say "it feels great to heal". Either it's a fight that's comfortable to heal, or it stimulates the monkey brain by giving them big numbers.

But there's nothing wrong with a more passive kit. Because FF14 has a far more active kit where you do use 90% of your cooldowns on a target, and you STILL aren't going to use all of it during a fight. So neither situation is necessarily any better, as you end up with kits that either are too situational or just go by unused half the time because there's something better.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

ESO healing is 99% DPSing across 6-8 spells and 2 ULTs. You can't even target your healing spells. A good chunk of the spells that sit on your hotbars are never used, and they exist purely to provide boosts to the other spells (or speed up your ULT generation)

WOW nowadays is just a spam heal. It isn't engaging. You are busy healing, but nothing feels 'great' to heal.

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And yet Druid plays nothing like Shaman who plays nothing like Priest (either spec) who plays nothing like Monk. But here any differences between healer in how they heal have pretty much been stripped away since the start of Shb with the exception of AST since it still has several delayed heal abilities.

I don't care for ESO's healing, but at least there, if I didn't need as many healing spells I could still support my team with extra damage by subbing out skills. I hated the idea that some extra abilities were tied to sets/weapons effects, but give them credit - its unique to ESO and you CAN make playstyles around it that are fun to use even if they aren't competitive.

WoW has something FFXIV got rid of - resource management. The only classes in the entire game that really need to pay attention to mana is DRK (arguable) and BLM. Healer? I'm AST. I have Astrodyne to straight up REPLACE lucid dreaming on top of every draw giving me 500mp (down from 800 may I add). 90% of the abilities I use as ANY healer cost 0 mana meaning I only use it for Raises, in which case, you may as well remove raise from the role, give it to every class on a limit and remove MP while you're at it. And piety too, because its a useless bar that the vast majority of classes don't even engage in.

Job gauges for managing resources mean nothing atm because there is no meaningful choices to make for it so they're a piss poor replacement.

The Healing role has problems:

- for veteran healers either to FFXIV or to the role across MMOs there is nothing for them to get good at and therefor has lack luster enjoyment/engagement and when asked by said players to have some further enjoyment the developers have said - *look at title of this thread*
- healers barely have any distinction between the two of them in healing playstyles and are continually called either clones or "X but with"
- in several pieces of content from dungeons to savage you can run without them or with just one even when said content was current
- things in the past that had valid issues that only needed to be tweaked or have more thought put into them, were straight up removed instead (AST cards, Selene) and the mains of those affected classes were pretty much told by the devs themselves "no, you're wrong, our way is better" when they shouldn't have been removed to begin with

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

And yet Druid plays nothing like Shaman who plays nothing like Priest (either spec) who plays nothing like Monk. But here any differences between healer in how they heal have pretty much been stripped away since the start of Shb with the exception of AST since it still has several delayed heal abilities.

I don't care for ESO's healing, but at least there, if I didn't need as many healing spells I could still support my team with extra damage by subbing out skills. I hated the idea that some extra abilities were tied to sets/weapons effects, but give them credit - its unique to ESO and you CAN make playstyles around it that are fun to use even if they aren't competitive.

*snip for length*
Job gauges for managing resources mean nothing atm because there is no meaningful choices to make for it so they're a piss poor replacement.

The Healing role has problems:

- for veteran healers either to FFXIV or to the role across MMOs there is nothing for them to get good at and therefor has lack luster enjoyment/engagement and when asked by said players to have some further enjoyment the developers have said - *look at title of this thread*
- healers barely have any distinction between the two of them in healing playstyles and are continually called either clones or "X but with"
- in several pieces of content from dungeons to savage you can run without them or with just one even when said content was current
- things in the past that had valid issues that only needed to be tweaked or have more thought put into them, were straight up removed instead (AST cards, Selene) and the mains of those affected classes were pretty much told by the devs themselves "no, you're wrong, our way is better" when they shouldn't have been removed to begin with

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I'm really not a big fan of resource management, having played job/classes in other games where in some cases I almost couldn't look away from my gauge , my rotation had to be 100% spot-on otherwise my DPS would be ruined, my resource management would be borked. We're not talking top 1% of players, more an achievable top 25%. I wouldn't want that level of stress in normal content.

However, in everything else you wrote, very well summarized. I would only add that there is some difference in healers in PVP, and for those people who are tired of seeing the same template in PVE that can be refreshing.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I'm really not a big fan of resource management, having played job/classes in other games where in some cases I almost couldn't look away from my gauge , my rotation had to be 100% spot-on otherwise my DPS would be ruined, my resource management would be borked. We're not talking top 1% of players, more an achievable top 25%. I wouldn't want that level of stress in normal content.

However, in everything else you wrote, very well summarized. I would only add that there is some difference in healers in PVP, and for those people who are tired of seeing the same template in PVE that can be refreshing.

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Oh I have mentioned PvP is better than PvE in at least giving battle content as far as job design goes and the level of resource management like you describe isn't what I'm looking for either.

But

https://i.gyazo.com/faeab4f15099f4fa...89328585ff.png

That is what my AST abilities look like. There are WAY too many skills that are 0 cost that aren't balanced by CDs appropriately. That is what I mean.

Perfect example of a well designed ability for AST atm is Macrocosmos. Not only does it cost mana, something I have in abundance, its also on a 3min timer, which means I have to pick and choose when exactly I should use the ability. In isolation outside of current combat design at least. Which is the level of thought I want out of healers.

As it stands right now, I can straight up IGNORE Macrocosmos because ES does exactly what it does for 0 mana, damage is scripted enough to where I will always have ES up when I need it (~ every 60s) and in the event I don't have ES I have Celestial Opposition and Collective Unconciousness which are ALSO 0 cost and up every 60s. My own kit invalidates itself and it is stupid.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

As it stands right now, I can straight up IGNORE Macrocosmos because ES does exactly what it does for 0 mana, damage is scripted enough to where I will always have ES up when I need it (~ every 60s) and in the event I don't have ES I have Celestial Opposition and Collective Unconciousness which are ALSO 0 cost and up every 60s. My own kit invalidates itself and it is stupid.

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Well... In AoE you mean. The only time it actually was better than Essential Dignity was P3S to cheese that one mechanic. It otherwise is as you say, a glorified raid-wide Benediction that scales off of how much damage people take. It's meant to be the answer to stuff like Panhaima for multi-hitting\hard-hitting raidwides... but if you know there isn't a major mechanic coming up, you can generally use other skills that will end up healing for no mana anyway. Timing Earthly Star to go off after a big raidwide is one such example.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Well... In AoE you mean. The only time it actually was better than Essential Dignity was P3S to cheese that one mechanic. It otherwise is as you say, a glorified raid-wide Benediction that scales off of how much damage people take. It's meant to be the answer to stuff like Panhaima for multi-hitting\hard-hitting raidwides... but if you know there isn't a major mechanic coming up, you can generally use other skills that will end up healing for no mana anyway. Timing Earthly Star to go off after a big raidwide is one such example.

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If we're talking about single targets Exaltation > CI/ED lol. Tank busters are so infrequent and damage other wise doesn't really matter since a tanks rotation heals them. But yeah.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

If we're talking about single targets Exaltation > CI/ED lol. Tank busters are so infrequent and damage other wise doesn't really matter since a tanks rotation heals them. But yeah.

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You know what I realized?

That "ES" in your previous message doesn't mean Essential Dignity |D it means Earthly Star.

I AM BLIND.

xD I was convinced you were saying to use Macro on Single Targets, which is why I opened with "Well... In AoE you mean"

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

You know what I realized?

That "ES" in your previous message doesn't mean Essential Dignity |D it means Earthly Star.

I AM BLIND.

xD I was convinced you were saying to use Macro on Single Targets, which is why I opened with "Well... In AoE you mean"

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XD I shouldn't because ED can also mean Energy Drain, but yes ES is what I use for Star.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

You got it in one, hussy.
It's true: the healer role has been neglected for so long that the cracks are showing and YoshiP is starting to run out of excuses.

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No, the truth was that if you want engaging content go do high end content. There, you've been properly educated, you're welcome

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Originally Posted by FireMage

No, the truth was that if you want engaging content go do high end content. There, you've been properly educated, you're welcome

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A much less arguable claim: If only the highest 1% of content can be engaging, the game's content design has serious issues.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A much less arguable claim: If only the highest 1% of content can be engaging, the game's content design has serious issues.

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Like this player base can handle engaging content with how garbage it is

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Like this player base can handle engaging content with how garbage it is

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The dumpster calls the garbage green. Or something like that..

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Like this player base can handle engaging content with how garbage it is

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Then maybe you should consider playing a different game my guy.

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Originally Posted by R041

The dumpster calls the garbage green. Or something like that..

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Speak for yourself, you are literally what I'm referring to

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Then maybe you should consider playing a different game my guy.

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That's how every game works though. Complexity is in the high end

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Speak for yourself, you are literally what I'm referring to

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Bro I don't live here, who even are you and what's even happening. People getting so uptight. lol

"Criticize.. MY VIDEO GAME!? I WILL PROTECT YOSHI WITH ALL MY UWUS!"

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Originally Posted by R041

Bro I don't live here, who even are you and what's even happening. People getting so uptight. lol

"Criticize.. MY VIDEO GAME!? I WILL PROTECT YOSHI WITH ALL MY UWUS!"

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Don't bother, bud, he's a known factor of just coming into threads and causing disruption and arguments. Best to just not engage, he's not worth the time or effort.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Don't bother, bud, he's a known factor of just coming into threads and causing disruption and arguments. Best to just not engage, he's not worth the time or effort.

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Imagine defending the attacker

Even then the engagement on higher end content is still very limited. Take DSR for example, nothing is really healing intensive until Nidhogg akhmorns, which are 12 minutes into the fight and the akhmorn edges again 15 minutes into the fight. Also most of the healing you do in phase 2 and phase 5 are when Thordan is doing his trios so there is no tradeoff in regards to to healing there.

There is also my most recent clear of p8s. 155 gcds and 30 of them were healing gcds. However, one thing to take into consideration is that 14 of these were done during the high concepts, As a result, there was no opportunity loss at all regarding. Overall, in terms of total gcds, I did only 18 percent in terms of healing when it comes to my gcds.

I feel like once a fight is "solved" in terms of finding the optimal timings for mitigation/healing cooldowns, the process of healing becomes mind-numbingly formulaic.

That said, doing reclears in party finder is a...colorful experience because not all people know those timings assuming they're using their cooldowns at all. Part 2 of 8S in particular is either anxiety or sleep inducing for me depending on how well others are managing mitigations.

The thing is though, that even if they increase the incoming damage, healing isn't necessarily going to be more engaging because you'll just be subbing in more GCD heals over DPS casts as long as damage remains as predictable as it is. I think having more sources of spike damage that are aimed at a few players as opposed to just hitting the entire raid (IE, A11S single Hawk Blasters/A12S Blaxing Heat) would help spice things up a bit.

Yeah, what KageTokage said. Fights eventually become predictable and move from "abject chaos" to "controlled environment". After a while, even a hard-hitting situation where you will die if you don't mitigate or heal properly become "Just press this button and be done with it". And there goes half your kit being unused again, since now you know what's coming and know there's no need to worry. Nothing's keeping you on your toes.

Whereas back in Alexander, even if you knew that there were moments of high damage coming, you still had to be careful and on the lookout. Kaltstrahl, anyone?

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Don't bother, bud, he's a known factor of just coming into threads and causing disruption and arguments. Best to just not engage, he's not worth the time or effort.

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Didn't know the forum's ignore list could be as useless as its in-game iteration that I can still see their responses if they were brought into other's replies... hopefully it won't take years for other folks to realize to just ignore the arson. :X

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Originally Posted by FireMage

properly educated

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The decision to remove critical thinking as required learning shows its results through your posts time and time again, evidenced by how you generally seem to believe that you've stumbled upon some grand revelation or infallible logic without having even the most fleeting thought otherwise. Some would say that would mean you are "vapid," however that would be a word better served to describe healer job design at present and the developer attitude towards it, as it is superficial at best with tricks and misdirection having been employed to prevent hysteria both within the healer community and outside of it.

"Vacancy" is a more accurate description for you and your scraped-from-the-surface-of-a-surface "knowledge," but the good thing is that there's no need to have anything where you don't actively want to have anything, so I suppose, as long as you're having your fun, feel free to pretend as if you have the box to stand on while laying face-first in the dirt.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

The decision to remove critical thinking as required learning shows its results through your posts time and time again, evidenced by how you generally seem to believe that you've stumbled upon some grand revelation or infallible logic without having even the most fleeting thought otherwise. Some would say that would mean you are "vapid," however that would be a word better served to describe healer job design at present and the developer attitude towards it, as it is superficial at best with tricks and misdirection having been employed to prevent hysteria both within the healer community and outside of it.

"Vacancy" is a more accurate description for you and your scraped-from-the-surface-of-a-surface "knowledge," but the good thing is that there's no need to have anything where you don't actively want to have anything, so I suppose, as long as you're having your fun, feel free to pretend as if you have the box to stand on while laying face-first in the dirt.

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https://scpr.brightspotcdn.com/dims4...f_original.png

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

Healing in FF14 feels better than any other MMO I have healed in (and I have healed in ever major MMO)

99% of the complaints seem to come from people that haven't healed in an MMO before this one.

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For the sake of playing devil's advocate, we'll take this at face value.

That still doesn't make FFXIV's healing feel great or engaging. When the overwhelming majority of content is casual, I shouldn't feel like a gimped DPS but that's precisely what I am. I've used this example plenty but it bears repeating: 500+ casts of Dosis III in Aglaia, on content, is absurd. I'm not a healer at that point. I'm the aforementioned gimped-DPS with a single button "rotation."

None of this is exclusive to casual content either. I never healed a full Savage tier until Asphodelos yet managed to clear every single fight, in PF, without a single GCD pressed. And before someone claimed I chadded. My co-healer and I combined for 97% in P4S. There's about as efficient as you can get without going into speed kill territory. The fact this is possible at the Savage level is ridiculous—made worse by having a single button to spam endlessly.

It speaks volumes when the director of the entire game has to beg people to "give healers a chance." Maybe, just maybe, he (and the dev team as a whole) should listen to actual dedicated healer players and not people who barely engage the role and think spamming Medica II for every raid wide is a good idea. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if the response to this tier's uptick in damage leads to an easier third tier. Better to kick the can than address the entire healing design has been incredibly flawed for two expansions now.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

The decision to remove critical thinking as required learning shows its results through your posts time and time again, evidenced by how you generally seem to believe that you've stumbled upon some grand revelation or infallible logic without having even the most fleeting thought otherwise. Some would say that would mean you are "vapid," however that would be a word better served to describe healer job design at present and the developer attitude towards it, as it is superficial at best with tricks and misdirection having been employed to prevent hysteria both within the healer community and outside of it.

"Vacancy" is a more accurate description for you and your scraped-from-the-surface-of-a-surface "knowledge," but the good thing is that there's no need to have anything where you don't actively want to have anything, so I suppose, as long as you're having your fun, feel free to pretend as if you have the box to stand on while laying face-first in the dirt.

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You aren't even a healer that does non brain dead content, what would you know?