What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It would be pretty dark if people just started dropping dead on the First because their Source counterparts were turning into blasphemies...and again I find myself disappointed by them seemingly trying to sweep that threat under the rug.

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With Yoshida confirming that once a "core" is destroyed all of the other sundered offshoots of them will also disappear, I have no reason to think that this is not true. And it makes perfect sense. Everything in these other dimensional Reflections is a direct copy of the Source world. We are told outright that if the Source falls to the Final Days and is destroyed, then the reflections will all fall simultaneously. It logically follows that as people are part of the world, if an individual's core soul is destroyed, so are all of their copies.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I'm pretty sure rejoining means the consciousness of the shard soul gets dissolved leaving only the source version's ego. This would explain why we never hear the voices of the 7 people rejoined with us (the 7th during our lifetime), they don't exist anymore, just the aether of their/our soul merged back with us. Ardbert's silence since 5.3 suggests he's probably ceased to exist by now.

So yeah it's worse than genocide it's the total cessation of existence for everyone on the rejoined shard.

But maybe I'm putting more thought into this than the writer's did. A shame if it's true, Ardbert could've been kept around as a recurring character that only we can see/hear and talk to, occassionally manifesting and talking to us.

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Eh, Ardbert staying around just gets me to thinking about the 'sunken place' in Get Out. I'd find it unsettling.

I don't believe sundered personas are ever 'saved' though? Maybe I'm forgetting/missing something, but the constant for each individual seems to be the core soul identity, the 'surface' persona that develops doesn't seem to continue on in any capacity regardless of the circumstances of their demise. It's implied even Amon's fervent desire to not let go of that identity would be lost when he's reborn to essentially just become the next new version of Hermes (core).

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's fiction. None of it is real. The characters are pixels on a screen.

The attempts to try and portray people as 'wrong' or 'bad' for favouring darker stories in a video game are little more than the same sort of puritan attempts to try and declare that video games should be banned because they inspire violence.

If you, yourself, feel that you'll go out and commit genocide because a character you support in a video game did the same thing then fair enough. Personally I have more faith in people to not assume that because they join the Dark Brotherhood in an Elder Scrolls game then that is equal to advocating support for paid assassinations.

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Enjoying dark storylines is fine. Roleplaying a dark character is fine. Arguing that genocide is justified and actually meaning that, is not. Genocide is bad always. Anyone who thinks a genocide is justified ever is messed up.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Enjoying dark storylines is fine. Roleplaying a dark character is fine. Arguing that genocide is justified and actually meaning that, is not. Genocide is bad always. Anyone who thinks a genocide is justified ever is messed up.

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Fictional genocide. But go ahead and stay in your safe space more power to you. Judging people irl based on their opinions over a VIDEO GAME. People like you are why we can never have nice debates where people agree to disagree. Instead you feel the need to accuse people of things irl over fictional circumstances.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Fictional genocide. But go ahead and stay in your safe space more power to you. Judging people irl based on their opinions over a VIDEO GAME. People like you are why we can never have nice debates where people agree to disagree. Instead you feel the need to accuse people of things irl over fictional circumstances.

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Dude if you like the story even the dark parts I do NOT CARE. If you like the ancients or the ascians or the garleans or the sundered, I don't care at all. I'd gladly discuss the pros and cons of the story. I've mentioned before that I thought the story would be better if some characters actually died this expansion. Because it's a story and things can make it better or worse. When we are discussing the justifications of characters however we are talking about morality. Emet and the Ascians had their own justification for doing what they were doing. I understand their goal. I understand their pain. I relate to that pain. But I would fight them a thousand times over to prevent them from achieving their goal because their methods cause more genocides. They judge existing people as inferior, worthless, irrelevant husks. They bring a lot of nuance to the story and I wish that we could have made an AU for them. I still think we could given that we can still go to Elpis. I'm endlessly bothered that we can't make that AU. That does not mean that I agree that rejoining is a good thing. It's not. It kills millions. Placing the memories of dead ancients into reincarnated bodies is overwriting the new existing person and comparable to murder. They are a fun antagonist, but I do not agree with their philosophy and will argue against people that say their philosophy is actually justified or good. It's a good tragic story that I wish we could explore more, but that's where it ends for me.

Likewise the sundering is also genocide and also bad and Venat is just as if not more evil. Every bad thing the Ascians do can be placed at her feet as well plus some.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Dude if you like the story even the dark parts I do NOT CARE. If you like the ancients or the ascians or the garleans or the sundered, I don't care at all. I'd gladly discuss the pros and cons of the story. I've mentioned before that I thought the story would be better if some characters actually died this expansion. Because it's a story and things can make it better or worse. When we are discussing the justifications of characters however we are talking about morality. Emet and the Ascians had their own justification for doing what they were doing. I understand their goal. I understand their pain. I relate to that pain. But I would fight them a thousand times over to prevent them from achieving their goal because their methods cause more genocides. They judge existing people as inferior, worthless, irrelevant husks. They bring a lot of nuance to the story and I wish that we could have made an AU for them. I still think we could given that we can still go to Elpis. I'm endlessly bothered that we can't make that AU. That does not mean that I agree that rejoining is a good thing. It's not. It kills millions. Placing the memories of dead ancients into reincarnated bodies is overwriting the new existing person and comparable to murder. They are a fun antagonist, but I do not agree with their philosophy and will argue against people that say their philosophy is actually justified or good. It's a good tragic story that I wish we could explore more, but that's where it ends for me.

Likewise the sundering is also genocide and also bad and Venat is just as if not more evil. Every bad thing the Ascians do can be placed at her feet as well plus some.

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Okay, and youre absolutely free to believe that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats fine, thats not what i have a problem with. I have a problem with you equating someones opinion over a video game to how they must be in real life. Thats what i take an issue with being its just....inherently wrong.

As for the rejoinings. Again, for idk how many times i have to say this, the rejoinings would cause a lot of death yes, no one is disputing this. But as someone i know once put it, its akin to ripping off the bandaid. The sundering in the long run is going to cause more death than the rejoinings ever would because its unnatural, and the deaths related to young age,illness,war etc is due purely to the sundering. These things will continue and be multiplied by however many shards are remaining. If the rejoinings came to pass there would be one event of mass death and then the future lives would all live longer and be immune to illness etc, thus causing less death in the long run. Leaving the sundered world as it is, is just as bad if not far worse than the rejoinings, even from just a numerical and statistical viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Okay, and youre absolutely free to believe that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats fine, thats not what i have a problem with. I have a problem with you equating someones opinion over a video game to how they must be in real life. Thats what i take an issue with being its just....inherently wrong.

As for the rejoinings. Again, for idk how many times i have to say this, the rejoinings would cause a lot of death yes, no one is disputing this. But as someone i know once put it, its akin to ripping off the bandaid. The sundering in the long run is going to cause more death than the rejoinings ever would because its unnatural, and the deaths related to young age,illness,war etc is due purely to the sundering. These things will continue and be multiplied by however many shards are remaining. If the rejoinings came to pass there would be one event of mass death and then the future lives would all live longer and be immune to illness etc, thus causing less death in the long run. Leaving the sundered world as it is, is just as bad if not far worse than the rejoinings, even from just a numerical and statistical viewpoint.

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Here's the issue with doing that. It judges that peoples lives now are not good and the lives that they become IF they survive would be better without asking those people first. If we took a census of every single life on the star and shard in question and they all agreed that they would be ok with doing a rejoining, then I would have no problem. Just doing it regardless of if people are informed or agree is the problem. People are allowed to make meaning out of their lives, fleeting or not. We can't just decide what's better for them without asking their opinion.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If only Venat did a census or better yet, a Google Forms Survey perhaps she may have found the vast majority of the Star being opposed to her ludicrous plan. Though, given her major character flaw being arrogance, she would have likely ignored the results and done what she did anyway.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Likewise the sundering is also genocide and also bad and Venat is just as if not more evil. Every bad thing the Ascians do can be placed at her feet as well plus some.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

We can't just decide what's better for them without asking their opinion.

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If only Venat did a census or better yet, a Google Forms Survey perhaps she may have found the vast majority of the Star being opposed to her ludicrous plan. Though, given her major character flaw being arrogance, she would have likely ignored the results and done what she did anyway.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Here's the issue with doing that. It judges that peoples lives now are not good and the lives that they become IF they survive would be better without asking those people first. If we took a census of every single life on the star and shard in question and they all agreed that they would be ok with doing a rejoining, then I would have no problem. Just doing it regardless of if people are informed or agree is the problem. People are allowed to make meaning out of their lives, fleeting or not. We can't just decide what's better for them without asking their opinion.

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Okay but... this i shwat ironworks did. They made a decision that would potentially doom billions of lives and it was fine and dandy to do that and thats never questioned. But when the ancients want to do it THEN its a problem. Its not so much judging the lives themselves as it is preventing more death.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Okay but... this i shwat ironworks did. They made a decision that would potentially doom billions of lives and it was fine and dandy to do that and thats never questioned. But when the ancients want to do it THEN its a problem. Its not so much judging the lives themselves as it is preventing more death.

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If what the ironworks and G'raha did to make ShB possible actually destroyed that AU then I agree, it's not ok. I don't know if it did destroy that AU. G'raha and the Crystal tower are still here. By all evidence before me I can only conclude that the other AU still exists. But in the event it was destroyed, then yeah, bad.