Monk 3.0 CHAKRA UNLEASHED

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

For the last two years, I had a level 15 PUG that I never intended to touch again.

However, yesterday I decided to give it another go. Got to level 34 MNK via PoTD.

I have a question - in concise terms (no sarcasm please) can someone please explain opo opo, raptor and coeurl forms to me?

I don't really understand them, the phase shift skill, and how they affect play.

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They're basically like combos, opo opo ability combo into raptor which combos into couerl which then combos back into opo opo, it continues rotating around like that. For each stance you can us two single target abilities, opo opo has Bootshine and Dragon Kick, raptor has True Strike and Twin Snakes and Couerl has Demolish and Snap Punch, except for the abilities that use opo opo you'll not be able to use any ability in a stance other than its own.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

How much of a dps loss would it be to hold Forbidden Chakra for purification in A9s?
I find myself having to charge up chakra before Faust anyway.

No Ninja in my party.

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If the BRD/MCH doesn't sing, using purification results in a DPS increase. If they do sing, using forbidden chakra is going to be a DPS increase but a party DPS loss. So my recommendation is use purification until you can beat the fight quick enough to where you won't run out of TP as making the BRD/MCH sing more TP song will result in a party DPS decrease.

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Originally Posted by Ryythe

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/W3BM

This set is better than the one you posted; using your stat weights

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http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/XE4M 1 det better just by moving melds around. It also has the same right side melds as the DRG BiS (2.39 gcd).

Update: Added Alexander savage floor 11. Sorry took so long, was out of internet for nearly a month and didn't get the chance to play x.x

new monk here, just want to know if the rotation on the 1st page still valid or is there a new one?

having trouble with maintaining all these buff uptime (tws, DK, demo, tod)

also as monk i take it we are not really aoe focus? say if tank train a lot of mobs should i start spamming aod and rockbreaker? or just keep picking the enemy 1 by 1 and let the other handle the aoe stuff?

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Originally Posted by gumas

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There's no set rotation, just keep your buffs/dots up. If you mean openers there are some better once out there.

Monks are strong AoE wise, if there are 4 or more mobs use rockbreaker, at 3 mobs use demo and then rockbreaker. AotD is genereally not worth it due to the immense TP cost. With the addition of Elixir field and the buff to Howling monk can be considered to be the best melee dps for aoe and are close to BLM.

^tq

considering this day tank just doing speed mob aggro, most of them its always 4++ mobs

I had the impression that Rockbreaker is a potency gain over snap punch in as soon as you're fighting more than a single target. Is my math wrong?

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Originally Posted by Ragology

I had the impression that Rockbreaker is a potency gain over snap punch in as soon as you're fighting more than a single target. Is my math wrong?

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It is a pot gain, but Demo is a larger one, so multi dot then rb. But the potency per tp is horrid, compared to snap it's 180/50 and 260/120. So if you have the tp available use it after multi dotting with demo.

Rockbreaker is a DPS gain over Demolish at 3 targets (390 vs 350). So if TP is not an issue, RB at 3+ targets. If TP is low, spread Demolish between them. But since Mnks have really good TP sustain, usually rockbreaker is the superior option.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Rockbreaker is a DPS gain over Demolish at 3 targets (390 vs 350). So if TP is not an issue, RB at 3+ targets. If TP is low, spread Demolish between them. But since Mnks have really good TP sustain, usually rockbreaker is the superior option.

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Putting demo on at least one target is going to be a potency gain until you hit 4 targets.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Rockbreaker is a DPS gain over Demolish at 3 targets (390 vs 350). So if TP is not an issue, RB at 3+ targets. If TP is low, spread Demolish between them. But since Mnks have really good TP sustain, usually rockbreaker is the superior option.

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Demo is 350 + 70 = 420, 7*50 pot from DoT ticks and a base of 70 when hit from behind.

I've just tried stone sky sea for fun.
A12S - ilv 259 - no party buff,food,pot
Got 3% left before time ran out,Is that good or bad ?

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

I've just tried stone sky sea for fun.
A12S - ilv 259 - no party buff,food,pot
Got 3% left before time ran out,Is that good or bad ?

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Good or bad isn't really the thing based on my understanding of SSS, it's not bad but it's not good enough :/

As I see it, SSS is a test to see if you can meet a required level of dps without having to worry about any mechanics, which kinda negates the whole I didn't use pots, food or party buffs to beat a dummy that just sits there and let's me dps.

If SSS is "the benchmark" then you didn't hit it, but SSS imo isn't the bench mark it's a meh dps test but that's all it it's, people can annihilate the dummies but fail at mechanics.

Also youre 4 ilvls above the minimum recommended ilvl for 12S.

If I was to guess either there's a problem with your rota, you made some mistakes or your build isn't right with the current stat weights.

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Originally Posted by HiroKirito

Good or bad isn't really the thing based on my understanding of SSS, it's not bad but it's not good enough :/

As I see it, SSS is a test to see if you can meet a required level of dps without having to worry about any mechanics, which kinda negates the whole I didn't use pots, food or party buffs to beat a dummy that just sits there and let's me dps.

If SSS is "the benchmark" then you didn't hit it, but SSS imo isn't the bench mark it's a meh dps test but that's all it it's, people can annihilate the dummies but fail at mechanics.

Also youre 4 ilvls above the minimum recommended ilvl for 12S.

If I was to guess either there's a problem with your rota, you made some mistakes or your build isn't right with the current stat weights.

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Bad then,thanks.

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

Bad then,thanks.

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Haha xD I didn't say that, but if you're using that's as your chosen "test" then beating it would be better, ik plenty of people who can annihilate the SSS dummies but just melt as soon as mechanics are introduced, if you can maintain anything close to the numbers you hit in SSS when mechs are brought into the mix (even at 3%) then you're fine.

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

I've just tried stone sky sea for fun.
A12S - ilv 259 - no party buff,food,pot
Got 3% left before time ran out,Is that good or bad ?

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You're going to need to provide more than just ilvl, it doesn't really say much about what gear or stats you have. Also with 3% left I would say it's good enough for you to kill A12S in an actual fight without any issues.

If you can manage to get past the add phase in the 1st part of A12S you should be fine for the rest of the fight. Also you could have really crazy stats at certain ilvl too so it is hard to gauge like above posters said. If all your gear has accuracy for example... this gear set would get pretty bad dps: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Y19W

For my group our only problem was figuring out the mechanics dps was not a problem. When we found out and became more comfortable with good ways to do things our dps went up a lot so if you think yours is "low" it will get better.

The only tough DPS check in A12S is the 4 adds phase, the rest of the fight is possible to clear with 14 deaths.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

Demo is 350 + 70 = 420, 7*50 pot from DoT ticks and a base of 70 when hit from behind.

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Oh right, for some reason I thought the DoT was 40 instead of 50. I stand corrected ^^

Will edit my post when i get home!

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Originally Posted by Krindor

The only tough DPS check in A12S is the 4 adds phase, the rest of the fight is possible to clear with 14 deaths.

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That is an odd number to say.


Anyone speculating on what offensive utility they'll give monk in 4.0?

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

That is an odd number to say.


Anyone speculating on what offensive utility they'll give monk in 4.0?

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That's the numbers of deaths during my statics 8th clear of A12S, was a miracle that we cleared it but shows that the DPS needed is next to non-existant.

Speculating for the exp is probably going to be worthless due to substantial changes to all class kits + one more job to be revealed.

How did you survive Void of Repentance with weakness?

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Originally Posted by BlackWhirlwind

How did you survive Void of Repentance with weakness?

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You don't have to survive it. During one of my group's worse runs, we had our SMN (who was on brink of death) sacrifice himself twice lol
(soak->die->raise->soak->die->fight is over)

Is it a big dps loss to use the 2.0 opener as opposed to the form shift opener?

you don't need to form shift to do the monk opener

Added zurvan ex sorry no video! I actually forgot to record our down and it doesn't look like my group wants to redo it since there is no gain for the majority of us but please do add anything you can think of.

EDIT: If someone can do a monk's perspective video I will add your video in the guide :)

Some questions -I'm coming back to MNK after being away for three years (took a break after getting sphairai animus in 4/14 after burning out on the atma farming). I'm looking to pick up where I left.

1) My PSN account tied to my original SE account got hacked, I don't have access to my original MNK so I have a new account. Regarding gear progression, should I buy the best gear I can on the MB? Thinking about buying rainbow stuffs (bolero, chest, jewelry, etc) at level 50. Would it be best to use the gear I get as I progress to level 60 via main story and job quests?

2) I don't remember the rotation I used previously and it probably wasn't very good but endgame was mainly the first and second coil and other tome farming. At level 50, I should be able to use the suggested openers on the first page? I'm getting old and my mind isn't as sharp so I'm planning on writing out the rotation as if I'm in school, got into trouble, and need to write the same thing over and over.

3) Another dumb question -when deploying the opener we're also paying attention to rear/flank for max potency right? Saw some vids of MNKs dropping openers and staying in the same place, sometimes right in front/back of the boss for the duration of it. So I don't know if it's a logistical thing but I'm guessing it must be situational?

4) Obtuse question, but once the opener is done then what? Go into normal skill rotations keeping up buffs/DoTs? I'm assuming that's the case and when the CDs are over, is it prudent to go into the opener when ready? As I levelled I was just simply popping a buff, going into some kind of three skill combo (Boot > TwS > Demo), applying a DoT (Fracture) and then rotating between other three skill combos and alternating between ToD and Fracture keeping stuff up. Was I supposed to be employing something similar to openers this whole time? Man, if I was, then I have severely gimped my MNK and any parties I've been with in terms of damage. >.<

I'm open to any tips/pointers offered. This game has changed a lot since I played so there is a good chance I'm going off of old information.

Thanks for all the information. It helps people like me quite a bit!

1) The main job quest gives you item level 90 gear now and you get 110 and up gear from the main story quest after you hit 50 so you shouldn't have to worry about gearing it up :)

2) like in 4, the rotation is pretty simple and easy to figure out! It won't take you long to memorize the opener on a dummy. There is stone sky sea now which is helpful it resets your CDs so you can do opener immediately again after trying it.

3) Yeah you should, sometimes it doesn't work for some fights or people are just lazy or like your first hit it doesn't make a huge difference in the long run.

4) Basically yeah you just want to keep everything up all the time without clipping the timers too much (people use fracture to delay a GCD here or there for this)

Sorry if this has been discussed here before but I've been seeing this argument come up a lot recently and I haven't really seen a definitive answer to it.
Which GCDs are better in the opener?
1. Demolish (PB) > Snap > Snap > DK > TS > Snap > ToD > ...
2. Demolish (PB) > Snap > Snap > DK > TS > ToD > ...

Basically, whether or not the extra Snap is necessary. I've heard the first opener is more potent if the extra Snap crits. I've also found that in the second opener Demolish can squeeze in under TA if you have a Ninja (Although it clips).

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Originally Posted by Crocel

Basically, whether or not the extra Snap is necessary.

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Not necessary.

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Originally Posted by Crocel

I've heard the first opener is more potent if the extra Snap crits.

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I have heard that claim before, but that's a little like saying the lottery is a good investment.* Even assuming you did get that crit, the chance ToD will get the two or crits it needs to (on average) outperform it is about 99.995% (current BiS + IR + BL -> 70% crit rate, 11 Bernoulli trials), so it should take priority. Your main rotation (~400 potency / GCD) also takes priority over an extra Snap Punch (~360 potency) in general.

Unfortunately, priorities don't always guarantee you the best DPS when a cutoff is known, which is kind of what an opener is. Forunately, I'm fairly sure the extra Snap Punch doesn't pay off with a 3m cutoff. I guess I ought to take another look at openers like I did in 2.5....

*Not the world's best simile, just a soundbite.

The real question is why are you even using FS to begin with on opener #2 if you are planning to use only 4 GCDs under Perfect Balance?

@topic I'd personally favor opener #2 (with a few changes). Besides FS being a pain to do before every opener, #2 allows you to fit a buffed fracture and ToD under the same DK rotation, without dropping either DK or TwS.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

The real question is why are you even using FS to begin with on opener #2 if you are planning to use only 4 GCDs under Perfect Balance?

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It's not strictly necessary, but I do recommend doing it for most cases since (1) Perfect Balance has a skill lockout time that isn't 0 and (2) losing the 5th GCD to lag / a scrubby tank isn't the most common situation (I'm assuming 3.5 changes made the lag bit even less common), but a lot can go wrong in 10 seconds. That is not to say be dogmatic about it; if pre-pull FS is being a distraction to you, or you suspect a tank has Leeroy tendencies, then surely you should drop it.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

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It's not that it's a distraction, it's a completely unecessary distraction at this point. People are only "used" to do it because of the previous GL duration that required a final Snap Punch in order to keep GL up. After the GL change, people still use it because.... why not, it still works right?

Also, the 0.3 secs PB animation is a non issue if you use it 0.3 secs pre pull.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

It's not that it's a distraction, it's a completely unecessary distraction at this point. People are only "used" to do it because of the previous GL duration that required a final Snap Punch in order to keep GL up. After the GL change, people still use it because.... why not, it still works right?

Also, the 0.3 secs PB animation is a non issue if you use it 0.3 secs pre pull.

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You have a 10 sec pull macro in any type of content you do with a group, if you are with pugs would you trust them with pre pull popping? FS is a non-issue and it just makes it safer. It also allows a ST start instead of running in.

It's a matter of preference, really. I'm all about efficiency so I dont see why use several seconds preparing FS if I don't gain anything with it. And personally I never ran into any problems by not using it. If there's a count down, PB works. If pug tanks pull without warning, PB is even better than trying to FS to get the opener right.

Regarding ST, I'd also rather use it fully buffed by gl3/b4b/IR/TwS/DK+more instead of using it naked on the pull. You don't see Goons engaging with spinershatter for example.
It always boggles my mind when I see monks starting with ST even on fights like A9s and Zurvan Extreme. And yes, this happens a lot.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

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You have to hold it for roughly 20 seconds before you can use it in the opener, that's 2/3 of it's cooldown. Fully buffed it's 2.66(1*1.3*1.4*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1) times the damage. If you use it on pull you get 1 + 1.87(1.3*1.19*1.1*1.1) = 2.87 within 30 seconds. So unless you're losing out on another ST pulling with ST is higher pot(On average 2/3 of the time).

There's nothing to do during the pull macro anyways so there's no reason not to FS.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Also, the 0.3 secs PB animation is a non issue if you use it 0.3 secs pre pull.

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Is it really that fast now? I wonder what that does to people who were using PB ST. (This is a serious question; my computers don't do video very well.)

Anyway, where I'm coming from is that I view good DPS as a habit, not an opener; I obsess over getting optimal openers and rotations not because optimality is possible but only to the extent that it forms good habits. There are many superstar DPS rankings (any MMORPG) that quite frankly don't do what is optimal because they have a strong set of enough good habits that it doesn't matter. My melee partner for two years does himself use a Form Shift opener. It comes in handy because this is a distinct likelihood: PB > Lightswitch rave at NSA datacenter > Snap-Snap-Snap-Snap um where'd PB go. In a situation like that, his OODA loop is well oriented to continue with a no-PB opener, where someone who did not Form Shift would need more GCDs to achieve GL3.

Monk, more than most jobs, involves keeping your head in the game. Everyone else stands around popping fireworks during a 2hr? This is permitted unto them, but monks are a li'l busy with Chakra and Form Shift. I see benefits in extending Form Shift preparedness mentality to a Perfect Balance opener, even if it isn't strictly necessary. It isn't strictly necessary to maximize our DPS either, but with the view that good DPS is a habit and not a conscious decision, we try (in part) because it feels right and comes natural. So if this is not how you function, you do you, don't fix it since it's not broken; when Bruce Lee says, "the easy way is the right way" he does not mean to be lazy, of course, but that what comes fastest to us and what benefits us the most need to be in alignment, rather than to be tied down to a style.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

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ST fully buffed is a little more than that. Between all your buffs, pots, possible raid buffs (Trick Attack, Hyper Charge, Battle Litany, The Balance), not to mention it's almost a guaranteed crit with optimal gear and IR, using it naked at pull is at most a convenience that most monks still like to have. Nothing wrong with that, and the dps difference caused by one way or the other is so barely noticable, that we would be better off arguing why not all monks are Highlanders 'cause of the +STR class bonus. However, engaging battles like a9s and ZurvanX with ST at pull is boderline non-sense and completely unecessary.

You can also jump around spamming the new Valentine's Day emote during pull macro, there's no reason not to. :P

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

My melee partner for two years does himself use a Form Shift opener. It comes in handy because this is a distinct likelihood: PB > Lightswitch rave at NSA datacenter > Snap-Snap-Snap-Snap um where'd PB go. In a situation like that, his OODA loop is well oriented to continue with a no-PB opener, where someone who did not Form Shift would need more GCDs to achieve GL3.

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Would you care to elaborate on this a bit more. o_o
I legit didn't get why someone without FS opener would take more GCDs to achieve GL3.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

the rest

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I don't engage with ST. But in order to start with PB AND engage with ST, than yes, there would be the small PB animation lock. However it's not stricly necessary to engage with ST either. You can engage all the bosses, at pull, just by walking with the tank. Zero dps loss, and ST can be used fully buffed by potentially 10 damage-up modifiers.

Regarding FS, if you like doing FS pre-pull, sure go ahead. You might not be losing any DPS ("might", since you are adding a unecessary extra Snap Punch and delaying things like ToD and Fracture).
But please, you keep implying that doing it this way is part of "Good DPS Habits" as well as implying that by not using it, one is *not* trying to push dps to its maximum. That is completely false.

If there's no clear evidence that adding an extra Snap Punch at the end increases your DPS, then it's pointless to FS pre-pull. Unless you want a small lag safety-net that, just like human error, happens to all of us and will end up lowering your DPS regardless of what you do. Or maybe, you wanna engage with ST but not have that small PB animation lock. Or out of habit. Pick one, but don't say someone is not trying to push their DPS by not using something that does not contribute to DPS and can very well be even hurting it.

My reasoning for wanting to use ST at the start has always been to open with demolish and get the positional for it. You end up delaying your gcd too long if you don't ST and try to hit the positional on the first demo. I've never tried it but i've always assumed the same goes for form shift. If you like to ST at the start then you'll want to FS so you can pop PB while your gcd is ticking instead of delaying it until your second off global (PB) is used.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

ST fully buffed is a little more than that. Between all your buffs, pots, possible raid buffs (trick attack, hyper charge, battle litanny, The Balance), not to mention it's almost a guaranteed crit, using it naked at pull is at most a convenience that most monks still like to have. Nothing wrong with that though, and the dps difference caused by one or the other is barely noticable because of its short CD. But using on battles like a9s and zurvanX at pull is boderline non- sense and unecessar.

You can also jump around spamming emotes during pull macro, theres no reason not to. :P

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Average crit rate is accounted into that, balance and HC will be up for the 2nd one, you won't get ST into TA unless you're using a gimped opener, so the only one not accounted for is BL.