Bring Back Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Carighan

In fact I'd go as far as saying that since FFXIV factually uses no mezz spells (there is Sleep, but nobody ever has that on their hotbars even, nevermind would utilize it) there is no reason not to remove ~all AoEs from ~all jobs, and just make all single target attacks cause explosion damage around the target for a percentage.

There's no need to waste the hotbar space on a mechanism (avoiding hitting extra targets) that is never ever used.

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At present there is no point, no. But that's because "trash" in this game is literally trash. Give things to actually focus down, atop some bits and pieces of utility (i.e., still output bonuses, but less obviously so / in manners impossible to estimate without their context) and there'd be reason enough to have AoE/overall vs. ST/focus damage on rare occasion in kits.

So while I'd agree, I'd say that points to a still larger problem than button waste that would be further cemented if QoLed around instead of being addressed: virtually all combat with 3+ simultaneously attackable targets in this game is creatively bankrupt.

Sure, but I can't see on-damage-breaks CC abilities (mezzes) make a re-appearance in this game all of a sudden. For anything else, X damage + Y% cleave like all newer AoEs works perfect, including having to focus down specific targets. Not enough depth to be gained from having "everything evenly" vs "one a bit more" options.

(Don't get me wrong I'd love for mezz spells to be a thing again, but I just don't see it happening :D )

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Sure, but I can't see on-damage-breaks CC abilities (mezzes) make a re-appearance in this game all of a sudden. For anything else, X damage + Y% cleave like all newer AoEs works perfect, including having to focus down specific targets. Not enough depth to be gained from having "everything evenly" vs "one a bit more" options.

(Don't get me wrong I'd love for mezz spells to be a thing again, but I just don't see it happening :D )

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I'm not talking about mezzes, though. I'm talking about focus damage (be that in targeting or, more broadly... in timing).

At present there is virtually never a reason to sacrifice overall damage to kill a particular something earlier because there's simply no complexity to mobs where by one may hold disproportionate threat (dangerous but squishy) or be a disproportionate obstacle (e.g., by placing an aura over others that enhances their attack or defense or unlocks additional mechanics for them) or any other synergies between mobs (binds before AoEs, etc.).

And it's not just among trash; gamewide there's virtually no point ever at-cost burst or sacrificing overall damage to deal more of it more immediately even if there were means to do so.

To be clear, I agree that X potency to primary target and Y% of that to the rest should be the way of things across most of the kit...

...buuut, for every mechanic we remove or consolidate just because it has no place in the current context of the game, we'd best be asking ourselves if that's a context we want to thereby affirm / further solidify.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The "nuance", small thought it be, is in positioning relative to your target to hit the other enemies and in choosing who to deal the greater focus damage to...

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I would shift that nuance to Cone Tenka, due to frequency, Shoha (and Shoha II) are more like Bonus Attacks to throw at the Enemy after performing 3rd Iaijutsu(&Ogi)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Because it doesn't need one. It has it. On your primary target. The AoE version (40% weaker) is then dealt to everyone else.

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Because it didn't got one, look at Guren and Senei, that's my point.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Samurai just feels so bad to play without Kaiten... all of it's weaponskills that COULD have been powered by Kaiten just feels like you you hitting enemies with a wet noodle without Kaiten... and having Kaiten on Samurai could have been SO USEFUL during the "Pictomancer Supremacy" arc when Dawntrail launched...

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Without Kaiten, the Rotation of the Samurai doesn't really change after lvl50. Kaiten made it so you could utilize Kenki to make your lvl50 Rotation hit even harder and it felt kinda complete. But now Samurai is just the lvl50 Rotation with some bonus attacks.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

just make all single target attacks cause explosion damage around the target for a percentage.
There's no need to waste the hotbar space on a mechanism (avoiding hitting extra targets) that is never ever used.

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at that point we could just play Dynasty Warriors instead^^

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Originally Posted by StriderZessei

Zanshin > Kaiten

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you seriously prefer a 2minute OGCD that costs not only 50 kenki but also requires *Ready* to activate over a 5second Skill that costs 20 Kenki and boosts the following weaponskill?
well I disagree.

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

still crying about this. its not gonna happen :/

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It's debating, not crying and if it's gonna happen, well be surprised

Funnily, Tendo is basicly Kaiten without Kenki, which makes it feel kinda empty.
wish I could use 20 Kenki for Tendo, honestly

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

I would shift that nuance to Cone Tenka, due to frequency, Shoha (and Shoha II) are more like Bonus Attacks to throw at the Enemy after performing 3rd Iaijutsu(&Ogi)

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You can have both. Regaining aim on Tenka does not mean you have to remove it from Shoha, let alone at additional button (bloat) cost.

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Because it didn't got one, look at Guren and Senei, that's my point.

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And look at what little difference Guren vs. Senei makes. If you can count to two, you've solved its optimization / skill expression. That's my point.

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at that point we could just play Dynasty Warriors instead^^

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"If we have one button less of bloat, we'll be reduced from the strategic/tactics-minded and highly deliberate game we have today to just mindlessly mowing down enemies in ways we definitely never did before in dungeons."

...I can't, man.

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you seriously prefer a 2minute OGCD that costs not only 50 kenki but also requires *Ready* to activate over a 5second Skill that costs 20 Kenki and boosts the following weaponskill?

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It's a bankable heavy hit that at least offers some agency in when (especially, within the raid buffs) it sees use without causing drift per said agency. What's so odd about finding that more pleasing ---especially, in its control--- than a chore (fun button-press or not) to be used before every single Iaijutsu (at therefore no increase in control)?

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Funnily, Tendo is basicly Kaiten without Kenki

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It's not. It's a bankable / virtually-driftless 40s burst GCD-CD. It has nothing to do with Kaiten beyond the idea of being stronger than an average GCD, at which point Iaijutsu or even your combo finishers themselves would be 'like Kaiten'.

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wish I could use 20 Kenki for Tendo, honestly

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If the CD were removed to make Tendo something utterly different, that then really would be Kaiten, just without any way to mess up. Which should largely defeat the point, no?

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

at that point we could just play Dynasty Warriors instead^^

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It's the current reality. I'm just advocating for removing hotbar bloat that has no functional use case anyways.