Please implement something to teach players how to play

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Reminder that this is a VIDEO GAME, not the source of your self worth, this obsession with video game ""skill"" and high end content from some people screams a lot of negative things about one's ego.

Hint: Video games are designed to be beaten.

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A video game is suppose to be fun and played not watching netflix while playing cookie clicker. I may be playing an entirely different game, but if someone is just auto attacking within content what is even the point of paying a subscription. This is literally things I have seen when playing. Why would people pay for a game they do not wish to play? I wish people would be courteous and go into /say /afk at least they would be honest about what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

The steps of progression makes it a game. A game does not have to be hard or requires thinking to be a game.

Myself, If I am going to do content over and over again. I rather it not be hard, and get through it quickly through the grind. Tougher content is fun for the first few times, but once you done it. It becomes tedious.

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It becomes tedious because you're doing it over and over... which is in turn because there is little variety among efficient means or content by which to meet the weekly caps.

For my part, I'd rather do the content at the difficulty I actually enjoy, with due reward for my efforts, so that my relative pool of choices is wider.

Ideally, as an average player, I should have, say, three levels/styles of content in PvE itself by which to farm out my weekly caps.

• I've got a choice that gives about 2 tomes per minute spent.
• Another that, given the likely occasional wipe or (excessive) caution, would take about twice as long, but still takes about 2 tomes per minute spent in my case. (For less skilled players, it might be a bit less efficient, and for more skill players, more efficient.)
• And, I've got a final choice that I can enjoy when I want zero stress, but gives a bit less per minute. (Again, for players who'd otherwise be making pivotal mistakes if they went into harder content at that time, maybe this will actually be the most efficient option by a slight margin.)

Why the assumption that the average player would be not only forced into more difficult content, but also that the content would be proportionately less rewarding of their efforts (more effort for the exact same reward efficiency).

The chances are, the less the content has to offer you -- i.e., the easier/shallower it is compared to your own skill level and/or preferred depth of engagement -- the faster you will get bored of it. At no point does the Savage raider look at the likely shallow-as-a-dry-pond Expert Roulette and think, "Yes, I want more of this. And everyone else should have it too, in amounts which would consume slightly more time for me -- even if that means far more time required for them."

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Jeeeeez this thread is going from discussion to ouch my brain to living breathing meme in record breaking time.

Some people commenting here just need to play a fricken single player game with cheat codes on. I would hate (love) to see how they deal with actually challenging content in anything. I recently discovered a term most amusing "baby rage" and I believe it adequately describes what would happen.

Group C from my previous post, having a stroke because they want it their way but we cannot have it ours because they cannot have it their way because we want it our way because they want it their way. Perhaps I am having a stroke but this is the only discussion even happening anymore. I am not surprised at'all only mildly amused. One 47 page long point of reference any time this topic arises. Waaaahh you just want the thing because you are selfish let us have the thing instead because "we are not selfish".

Reality casts introspection > introspection misses

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I'm having a hard time understanding this little rant, but how does difficult content have anything to do with being a mmo or single player? Your logic makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

This is a huge problem I have with final fantasy 14 in general. I recently finished shadowbringer and possibly go into bozja. I went to look at all of the gear and what it took to get it, this is before the tombstone cap was increased. It kind of feels like a mobile game with a cash shop. There are currencies upon currencies you have to keep track of for some unknown reason that are weekly capped for some unknown reason. I suppose it is to keep people playing the game for long periods of time, but it really just makes me irritated. I do not need grindy content to keep me playing the game, but I guess that is how some are incentivized at least how the company must see it.

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I understand this point also. And I'm going to add to this.



To the people who want to teach, and harder content in the base game, and dailies. Do you all understand just what that would lead too? I don't think you do. Players will always game the system, and will always take the shortest route, and or gatekeep players that does not meet your standards. Do you understand just how toxic the game would become? Wow mythic is proof of that, but lets not even talk wow. We seen in this game itself how people gate classes before, and what players do when harder content becomes the normal.



So here in your perfect FF14 you gatekeep players and have an intense program that teaches them. Ok, Now picture DF content that you do everything. Balance around that. Do some of you understand just how tedious the game would be? If we are going to grind for months on the same thing, it being mind numbing easy is MUCH better than it requiring full attention. If it required focus all the time, you understand just how much worse the grind would be?

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Reminder that this is a VIDEO GAME, not the source of your self worth, this obsession with video game ""skill"" and high end content from some people screams a lot of negative things about one's ego.

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Games are designed for EVERYONE.
From people with disabilities to the hardcore players.

This topic is to discuss the issue of player performance. Teach players how to play. Why? Because the vast majority of the players are bad. That's not coming from me, or the OP, it came from the development team themselves. So don't come down telling us that we're setting our own bar and expectations.

How's the development team handling this?
- Watering down job complexity.
- Nerfing content.
- Creating even easier content.
They even added easy and very easy mode to MSQ.

Players who have caught up with this are not pleased and are asking for an alternative solution. Instead of making things waaaay too easy. They can implement something to help players become better at playing the game. So the development team doesn't need to hold back when designing jobs and duties.

We keep going back to that one suggestion which is: make content harder.
I myself disagree with this. There are alternative ways to help players learn without making content harder.

Now I hope this thread starts bringing up ideas other than discussing that one idea that the majority seem to disagree with.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

In the same kind of thing the OP is asking for, if only there was something to teach people how to drive their car properly irl... Something that could be called a "driving licence". With that, i would never be worried to cross the road of misbehaving drivers again ! Because there is absolutly no way that countless people, once they are done with their lessons, tests and tutorials, will start to forget them, or even worse : ignore them, to do what they want instead.

Irony aside, if underperforming players are making you so sick, then you are probably better off opening a "high dps, wall to wall pulls, no zero dps healer" group in PF.

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The OP was asking if there could be something implemented to help teach people who wish to learn. Maybe to fix the early content to not be so outdated. Somehow this devolved into people who just wish to stand there auto attacking arguing that the people telling them they need to use w,a,s,d to move are patronizing them and everyone who does not let them grief are grouped into the 'just want to do wall to wall speed running strats' category or something of the like. I just want people to be courteous, and to think about the others they are queuing with. There is a huge difference between 'underperforming players' and 'just doing what you want because heeee heee it is making everyone so mad, I am making everyone unable to complete the duty.'

The streamer who did this is a perfect example, but their tune changed when they played with their friends and wished to learn the savage fights. It makes me wonder if numerous people in this thread are doing the same thing and wish to not be called out for purposely using 'play style' as a way of being able to troll others who are just playing the game, who did not agree to be trolled because 'meh, I just don't feel like doing anything this dungeon'. Why even queue if not to troll or grief other people when they have no way of fighting back most of the time. There is literally nothing in the game explaining how to report or vote kick people in the game.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I'm having a hard time understanding this little rant, but how does difficult content have anything to do with being a mmo or single player? Your logic makes no sense.

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Hmm.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I'm having a hard time understanding anything.

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Better, much better.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

The OP was asking if there could be something implemented to help teach people who wish to learn.

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I am beginning to believe this is indeed lost cause. You can lead a FF14 player to water and it will drown its self.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Hmm.



Better, much better.

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Giving you a chance to explain, and you can't even do it. At least I can explain myself and why I feel the way I do.



anyway like I said. The simple answer to this problem is let the Trust system be duoed, and let the community use it to teach players that want to be taught. Problem fixed.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

If we assume best is 100, OK would be around 45~55.
Anyone asking for more than that in a normal duty is being unrealistic. You can ignore them because they are trouble regardless.

Focus on the real issue which is the average player performing 15~20 thinking they are 45~55.

This topic suggests giving information/ideas that can maybe fix this issue. Yet you completely ignore this and focus on the unrealistic performance?

In my book, anyone who reads their tooltip and understands the 'design' of the job can easily do well.

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How do you know they're performing at 15-20 compared to the entirety of the player base?

If you're making that assumption off what gets uploaded to FFLogs, you're not getting a true sample of performance from the player base in general let alone a complete report of all player performance. All you're seeing is what someone bothered to upload. Considering the logs are mainly relevant to the high end raiding community, the majority of the community aren't going to be recorded there because they're not doing high end content or they're doing it casually in pugs where there's unlikely to be anyone recording. Those 15-20 players might actually be 60-70 players if that data was getting collected from everyone.

I get that the thread was intended to address what some players perceive as a problem. Go back to my original response on the first page of the thread:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You can't teach someone who's not interested in learning. You can't get someone to put in effort when they feel the content is beneath them.

Those who are willing to learn and put in effort are doing it already.

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You also don't know much about people if you think everyone is able to understand what they're supposed to do just from reading tooltips. Not everyone has critical thinking skills and yet the game is here for anyone to enjoy regardless of what their skill level is. There's a reason so many players ask for guides - they need someone else to figure things out and explain it in language they understand.

There are a lot of players that won't even ask for a guide. Why? Because becoming a better player isn't necessary for them to enjoy the game. Their enjoyment is coming from sources other than performance.

The game is here for everyone to enjoy regardless of their skill level. SE places no burden on anyone to "git gud". They've even gone as far as adding the easy and very easy modes to solo duties so no one will be blocked from MSQ progress. If you're running into someone in EX/Savage/Ultimate who can't cut it, by all means remove them from the group. Maybe if they get removed often enough, they finally have the motivation to become a better player.

But it's not something that can be forced on players.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

To the people who want to teach, and harder content in the base game, and dailies. Do you all understand just what that would lead too? I don't think you do. Players will always game the system, and will always take the shortest route, and or gatekeep players that does not meet your standards. Do you understand just how toxic the game would become? Wow mythic is proof of that, but lets not even talk wow. We seen in this game itself how people gate classes before, and what players do when harder content becomes the normal.

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1. Teaching does not, nor does a desire to teach, suddenly cause people to game the system or take the shortest routes possible; they already do. Nothing in that would change.
   
   
2. Having harder content available or made subtly more normal in the game experience would not suddenly cause people to game the system or take the shortest routes possible; they already do. However, there would be change, in that taking the shortest route has less to be gained in the short term and less to be lost in the long term, as the ability to leech (i.e., to knowingly underperform or knowingly neglect what was situated as something that you should learn in order to perform at an average level) will have decreased.
   
   
3. "Dailies" are already in the game. I have no idea why you're bringing them up, but alright, let's take a look at what harm dailies can cause, which is actually higher that either of the other items you've mentioned. Dailies add a completion bonus. The thing about completion bonuses is that completion does not require optional elements. Even if those optional elements were balanced to be a real choice for those doing the content repeatedly, anyone doing that content only once per day -- and for whom other daily bonuses will have greater efficiency than doing repeats of that first piece of content -- faces a drastic loss in efficiency for doing those optional elements. Such can badly limit design, especially at the much more casual end of things.
   
   
4. Judging from the misinformation in your previous posts regarding Mythic in WoW, I severely doubt you can take it as proof of anything except that what you have no experience with is difficult for you to explain.
   
   
5. We see people "gate classes" when those who do not know, or expect those likely to join will not know, how to play their own job at the given level in turn insist on whatever advantages they can, be that party composition or item level, in order to carry them through it or make up the likely shortfall with minimal need to disband or replace. You may note that when players (have reason to) actually trust one another's competencies, that is neither necessary nor common.
   
   
6. I get that you intended for "when harder content becomes the normal" to ring of something like "when the sky falls", but

• no one here has asked that Extremes or Savage suddenly replace Normal, only that there be more that is capable of integrated, situated, and meaningful feedback across the pre-level-cap experience as to better bridge that eventual gap between the likes of leveling dungeons done at a crawl and Extreme trials -- perhaps including some mild hurdles of clear intent -- and...
• you're forgetting the whole idea here, that this would be to teach players, such that something between the likes of Extreme and Normal, for instance, would not feel harder than Normal itself does currently. The only way for content to perceivably harder by endgame, to the average player who's benefited from the changes suggested, is to have broken from the premise you're critiquing.

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So here in your perfect FF14 you gatekeep players and have an intense program that teaches them. Ok, Now picture DF content that you do everything. Balance around that. Do some of you understand just how tedious the game would be? If we are going to grind for months on the same thing, it being mind numbing easy is MUCH better than it requiring full attention. If it required focus all the time, you understand just how much worse the grind would be?

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How many different ways must one reiterate that mind-numbing content is mind-numbing? That is never a good thing. Just as irredeemably panic-inducing is not, itself, ever a good thing.

There can be a cathartic element to the prior or something thrilling to the latter, but those are separate elements. If there was something cathartic or relaxing in a given piece of content that was inseparable from it being mind-numbing, I might agree with you, but there isn't. The mind-numbing content is instead just... less. Of anything.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

I should hope the devs at least have their heads screwed on straight to know if they added teaching things within the game it would be tailored to those learning and hopefully even the content they wish to do. I am assuming that was how this thread started. I would think they would just fix the early class quests to actually allow for you to test abilities to know what they do rather than kill opo opos a million times and light a torch to summon more opo opos, this just taught me someone on the dev team really hated opo opos for some reason.

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This, honestly.

Job flavor text: "Oh neat! Can't wait to see how the two archery styles diverge and which I'll kind of fit into more."

Job objectives: "...Oh, play-time inflation that has no connection to or synergy with the story except to be the... 13th reason as of yet for me to cross the river above the Bannock. Great... I mean, I guess the area's pretty, sure, but... isn't this path of archery butts supposed to have some intent to it -- something in keeping with the lessons the prior dialogue hinted at?"