Gender locked race?

And it's gonna be 5 LONG weeks at this rate :D

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

So in other words I can go back and add adjectives to my statements like "likely" and "probably" and it makes all of Shippuu's demands for evidence effectively moot even though what I am stating in the sentence doesn't actually change. Nor will I have to actually defend them giving all the arguments on this subject he gave. Correct?

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I don't know what you said. If you said the dev team specifically did something without sources and change your posts now you're effectively saying something completely different. I don't know how you don't see that.
Example would be Yoshida did this because he wanted blank and here's where he said that. Or
I think Yoshida did this because he wanted blank but I have no real idea and I'm just coming up with random things.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

I don't know what you said. If you said the dev team specifically did something without sources and change your posts now you're effectively saying something completely different. I don't know how you don't see that.
Example would be Yoshida did this because he wanted blank and here's where he said that. Or
I think Yoshida did this because he wanted blank but I have no real idea and I'm just coming up with random things.

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In both cases you are making a claim about what the dev teams did. Does hedging the statement with an adjective like "probably" or a phrase like "I think" exempt you from having to provide argumentation and evidence to back up that statement in a debate? It is a fairly simply question.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

In both cases you are making a claim about what the dev teams did. Does hedging the statement with an adjective like "probably" or a phrase like "I think" exempt you from having to provide argumentation and evidence to back up that statement in a debate?

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In a debate you would have the evidence prepared. If it's a forum, yes just stating your opinion and not stating fact exempts you from needing a source.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

Well, let's put your little standard to a test. If I go back and change the statement

Gender-locked races definitely damaged the 1.0 version of the game enough that one of the first things Yoshida did after taking over the project was remove them. Or have you forgotten that?

to

Gender-locked races probably damaged the 1.0 version of the game significantly. After all, that one of the first things Yoshida did after taking over the project was remove them. Or have you forgotten that?

Does the addition of the word probably change what I am saying, or what I am thinking, when I made that statement; yes or no?

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Yes, it does change what you are saying, because those words have different meanings. That's why we have different words for different things. That's what adverbs are for, they modify.

The addition of the word would have absolutely not resulted in me asking you to back up that claim with evidence. Because it wouldn't have been you definitively saying something without proof, but stating it as a possibility which is far more reasonable. So yes, it absolutely does change what you're saying. It went from a "This thing absolutely happened" to "This thing possibly happened."

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

In a debate you would have the evidence prepared. If it's a forum, yes just stating your opinion and not stating fact exempts you from needing a source.

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So in a forum even if I believe a statement to be true I merely have to add to proper adjective to the statement and be exempt from having to defend it?

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Yes, it does change what you are saying, because those words have different meanings. That's why we have different words for different things. That's what adverbs are for, they modify.

The addition of the word would have absolutely not resulted in me asking you to back up that claim with evidence. Because it wouldn't have been you definitively saying something without proof, but stating it as a possibility which is far more reasonable. So yes, it absolutely does change what you're saying. It went from a "This thing absolutely happened" to "This thing possibly happened."

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But in both cases my underlying meaning remains the same. So according to you I can go back, add words like probably to my statements and effectively make all your demands for evidence moot even though my underlying meaning remains the same. Correct?

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

So in a forum even if I believe a statement to be true I merely have to add to proper adjective to the statement and be exempt from having to defend it?



But in both cases my underlying meaning remains the same. So according to you I can go back, add words like probably to my statements and effectively make all your demands for evidence moot even though my underlying meaning remains the same. Correct?

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Lmao dude you are ridiculous. Like if you can't see you're wrong I'll just leave you be.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

Lmao dude you are ridiculous. Like if you can't see you're wrong I'll just leave you be.

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Funny how you didn't point out it was ridiculous when Shippuu hid behind it in his posts.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

But in both cases my underlying meaning remains the same. So according to you I can go back, add words like probably to my statements and effectively make all your demands for evidence moot even though my underlying meaning remains the same. Correct?

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Yes, but saying definitely means you're stating it as an absolute fact. If you are going to state something is a fact, you need to be able to back that up with evidence that proves it's a fact. If you say you only think something may be so, you're entitled to believe that. I could certainly inquire into what might have given you that belief, but you'd not have to prove anything, especially since you would have been speaking in possibilities, as in, the outcome/cause could be unknown.

Just like if you change your mind now, and want to say you probably think 1.0 genderlocks damaged the game, I would most certainly not ask for evidence. It's the fact you said they definitely did that brings umbrage and a request for proof.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

Funny how you didn't point out it was ridiculous when Shippuu hid behind it in his posts.

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Probably because I wasn't saying the devs absolutely did things, and was only talking about possibilities, but here we go again.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Yes, but saying definitely means you're stating it as an absolute fact. If you are going to state something is a fact, you need to be able to back that up with evidence that proves it's a fact. If you say you only think something may be so, you're entitled to believe that. I could certainly inquire into what might have given you that belief, but you'd not have to prove anything, especially since you would have been speaking in possibilities, as in, the outcome/cause could be unknown.

Just like if you change your mind now, and want to say you probably think 1.0 genderlocks damaged the game, I would most certainly not ask for evidence. It's the fact you said they definitely did that brings umbrage and a request for proof.

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So in other words my initial assertion that it's use by you is nothing more than a tactic to get out having to provide evidence to back up your statements via weasel words is more or less correct. Thank you for that admission.

I"m not even sure what is going on in this thread at this point, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I"m not even sure what is going on in this thread at this point, honestly.

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Discussion on semantics, from what little I gathered? It is starting to veer off topic again. Granted, with no additional information at this point in time, it could be considered akin to either cheerleading for one's viewpoint, or beating a dead horse. Glass half full/empty kind of thing. Sort of...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I"m not even sure what is going on in this thread at this point, honestly.

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Now that is a big mood.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

So in other words my initial assertion that it's use by you is nothing more than a tactic to get out having to provide evidence to back up your statements via weasel words is more or less correct. Thank you for that admission.

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Whatever helps you sleep at night, champ.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExcitableI...pper-small.gif

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I"m not even sure what is going on in this thread at this point, honestly.

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It's safe to assume it's what happens on all NA threads with more than 40 pages: Drama, personal attacks, sass and meme worthy sentences.

I'm gonna put my tinfoil hat on for a moment: the "home of the viera" in Shadowbringers is in the foothills of a mountain range, and being solitary guards, the males would likely be higher up in the mountains where it's colder so that they can watch for incoming threats from most of Othard. Viera already borrow aspects of Norse and Icelandic culture in their accents, naming, etc. I suspect that the Hrothgar are male Viera, but there's enough dimorphism that they've been classed as their own race, both by the matriarchs and by any outsiders that see them - bulky, to contrast with the females being wiry, thick fur that covers their neck and part of their face, shorter ears that are protected by the fur of their manes instead of exposed to the cold wind, and so on.

I hope next BluFever will keep his lips shut next time and not ruin people's excitement. If next expansion is going to end up like this, I rather have no leak at all without every 2. User has to remind me on them.
This whole thread only lives on thanks to him and his leaks. Its time that it dies down.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I hope next BluFever will keep his lips shut next time and not ruin people's excitement. If next expansion is going to end up like this, I rather have no leak at all without every 2. User has to remind me on them.
This whole thread only lives on thanks to him and his leaks. Its time that it dies down.

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I mean, SE kinda leaked themselves in the end... it wasn't Blufever who put the text glitch into the game (or was it...?). Even if he wasn't in the picture, I'm sure we would still all be wondering the exact same things.

Let me join the tin foil hat club with Daralii and say that I think the text glitch might have been intentional. Sudden uproar about lack of male Viera in preview? Just got out of the Fanfest in France and it just so happens that the French client is the one that gets borked? Funny timing for this to get put out there. I smell shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by Roda

I think the "unlock it later" crew are saying they release females, then the players backlash because of course they will, and then se will be like "oh people actually wanted this??? We had no ideaa!!!" or "We couldn't finish this race in time so buy it now and we'll update it later because race releases can be partially release gated like raid releases" and then they finish the race later like they did for male miqo'te, female roegadyn, and female highlander.

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So, the next expansion after? I guess that would make more sense, but people would still freak.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I hope next BluFever will keep his lips shut next time and not ruin people's excitement. If next expansion is going to end up like this, I rather have no leak at all without every 2. User has to remind me on them.
This whole thread only lives on thanks to him and his leaks. Its time that it dies down.

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Leaks or not the reveal of only female viera would have sparked something,
This thread was 100% garunteed to happen.

Cant really blame the leaker.

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Originally Posted by Xeno85

I mean he hasn't done anything, I calls it as I sees it. Nor do I think it is particularly rude to refer to him with the personality traits he quite blatantly exudes.

It's nice that you gave us [things]
but we also want [things]
Give us [things] or we tantrum

Don't you see how ridiculous it is? If you can't I feel genuinely sorry for you.

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Customer: I liked my previous [thing] that I purchased. Can I have this other kind of [thing]?
Company: No, because I think your kind is a bit weird.
Customer: Then I'll take my money elsewhere. (Then proceeds to talk to friends and people on the internet about it.)

Don't you see how logical this is? If you can't, you're probably a White Knight.

Read the last few pages, and my god. Just block each other already. Some folks are just happy to speculate and have some fun. I swear others are here just to kick up dirt instead of being devil's advocate - which is at least acceptable!

Just had a thought, but if you're advertising a new product in a game - don't they specifically have to state if something is 'Limited'. They're advertising ShadowBringers with Viera right now as a selling point. But it only says 'The Viera' - I would have thought they would have needed to put a ' * Female only ' I suppose it could be argued that the image only shows the females but I was of the mind it had to be stated thy text. If they don't do that, well is that false advertising? I mean I suppose it's fine if they're adding onto it - but they're supposed to state the 'minimum' expectations.

I mean, Viera are technically a female only race in the Final Fantasy franchise. We've never seen the males in the games they're from and FFXIV is the first game to even give them lore. If anything, it'd be more like: "The Viera - Males included" if males were to be playable.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

We've never seen the males in the games they're from and FFXIV is the first game to even give them lore

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But the lore does exist and was a hefty portion of what we were told about the race onboard the airship. They could've just as easily spewed something about them needing males from other races to mate instead of explain that there are, in fact, male Viera out there, and go on about their habits and customs.
Honestly, we're at the point where there's enough pointing either way. It's Schrudinger's Male Viera - Viera are both genderlocked and not genderlocked until Yoshi-P opens the box at fanfest

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I mean, Viera are technically a female only race in the Final Fantasy franchise. We've never seen the males in the games they're from and FFXIV is the first game to even give them lore. If anything, it'd be more like: "The Viera - Males included" if males were to be playable.

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Aye, that I get. I was more on the lines of - would that actually stand to scrutiny in regards to advertisement laws. Not that I plan to do anything, of course, was just one of those pesky stray thoughts. Looking at both Steam and the ShadowBringers official page, it simply states 'Viera' - so my mind was all 'can they do that and not state the genderlock?' Especially for a new player who doesn't know the history of Viera.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Looking at both Steam and the ShadowBringers official page, it simply states 'Viera' - so my mind was all 'can they do that and not state the genderlock?' Especially for a new player who doesn't know the history of Viera.

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They advertised BLU as just a "job" on the lodestone and left a couple of people very confused when they hit 50, so sadly I wouldn't put it beyond them. With BLU, however, they at least had other sources explaining the restrictions and limitations, including, again, the very fanfest BLU was introduced at. We have nothing of that sort for Viera.

I'm pretty sure they will introduce the male Viera during the JP fanfest. Yoshi implied it.

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

I'm pretty sure they will introduce the male Viera during the JP fanfest. Yoshi implied it.

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He didn't imply it. He implied they'd be revealing something.

It could be male Viera, but it equally could be Hrothgar or something completely out of left field.

People just tend to hear what they want to hear, and then relay that version instead of the actual statement.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

He didn't imply it. He implied they'd be revealing something.

It could be male Viera, but it equally could be Hrothgar or something completely out of left field.

People just tend to hear what they want to hear, and then relay that version instead of the actual statement.

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Eh regardless I will welcome it? But mentioning the next fanfest and that there is yet something to be revealed after a question about male Viera does sort of imply that regardless of the reveal, we will get our answer there.
I don't understand why people are so aggressive about this? I'll happily hop around as a bunny boy if they turn out to be a thing, if not oh well?

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

I don't understand why people are so aggressive about this? I'll happily hop around as a bunny boy if they turn out to be a thing, if not oh well?

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Because to some people it matters more than it does to you, for various reasons. It's really that simple.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

But the lore does exist and was a hefty portion of what we were told about the race onboard the airship. They could've just as easily spewed something about them needing males from other races to mate instead of explain that there are, in fact, male Viera out there, and go on about their habits and customs.
Honestly, we're at the point where there's enough pointing either way. It's Schrudinger's Male Viera - Viera are both genderlocked and not genderlocked until Yoshi-P opens the box at fanfest

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This reminded me of this:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yZpIog7e-R4/maxresdefault.jpg

Now to wait 5 weeks instead of a few seconds to find out what is inside >_<

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Originally Posted by Anyan

Customer: I liked my previous [thing] that I purchased. Can I have this other kind of [thing]?
Company: No, because I think your kind is a bit weird.
Customer: Then I'll take my money elsewhere. (Then proceeds to talk to friends and people on the internet about it.)

Don't you see how logical this is? If you can't, you're probably a White Knight.

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... it really says a lot when you think a company is basing their decisions solely on the opinions of you that more than likely does not exist to begin with. That's what I mean though, some good things are not good enough, you need all the good things to be satisfied. It's manic.

And sad to say I am not invested enough in this MMO to white knight it. I like it. But I am not going to get zealous about it. Pointing out asinine behavior and white knighting are two very different pieces of pie.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

But the lore does exist and was a hefty portion of what we were told about the race onboard the airship. They could've just as easily spewed something about them needing males from other races to mate instead of explain that there are, in fact, male Viera out there, and go on about their habits and customs.
Honestly, we're at the point where there's enough pointing either way. It's Schrudinger's Male Viera - Viera are both genderlocked and not genderlocked until Yoshi-P opens the box at fanfest

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Except that male Viera have existed in Ivalice lore for some time, and its the Ivalice creator, Matsuno, who was brought on board to write the plot for Return to Ivalice, and Yoshi P confirmed Matsuno wrote that Viera lore.

It's Matsuno's baby, to put it simply, it was left up to him.
So I wouldn't say thats a point in favour of us getting male Viera at all. It was Matsuno's creative decision to build on his existing Viera lore, which he's not likely to have changed to reflect the presence of male Viera in FFXIV.

That said, the line "they simply do not exist for us" is a strong indicator against it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

That said, the line "they simply do not exist for us" is a strong indicator against it.

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Said a male Keeper, if the name is lore abiding.

But see that line in and of itself is like catch 22. They sure went and told us a lot about people who might as well 'not exist for us'. If they really didn't want to draw attention to male Viera, that is not how one goes about it.

I'm going to throw another example that seems to tie in with this. In-game Shinobi. They're supposed to be a secret society and one could be standing right next to you and you wouldn't even know. But once you become a ninja or get to a specific point in the game where they matter, they're suddenly everywhere. Because they decided to show them, and now they're important.

Hey guys I'm just here to say I can't wait until they inevitably reveal male Viera at JP Fanfest!

If we get out of Lore and anything not that relevant in this respect, what bothers me the most is their radio silence actually.

Scenario 1 : Viera Male exists, and we also have non-genderlocked Hrothgar all announced in Tokyo.
M'ok, they were just stirring us and it worked. But that's a lot to offer... We're speaking about the team that offered us limited jobs here.

Scenario 2 : Viera is female only and Hrothgar is male only, "suprisingly" announced in Tokyo
I don't see why they could not have said "there are no male vieras, but who knows, we still have a fan fest..." or something cheeky like this.

Scenario 3 : Viera is female only, and Hrothgar is just a mistake (ake does not happen).
Same as above. Why let people simmer about "maybe there's a male Viera" when they could have flat out said "Viera is female only, please look forward to it!" ?

But here they are, not saying anything about anything more than "there is still one fan fest!". Well, t sure kept the forums busy.

You forgot the most likely scenario where Hrothgar was a mistake and Viera is not gender-locked, with the males not shown in Paris due to them not being ready yet. It's a concerning state to be at given how not-far off the expansion is, but given how the females were all basically identical, the males not even being ready isn't such an inconceivable possibility.

The question at this point really is how much of a "mistake" was the Hrothgar bug in the first place.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

But the lore does exist and was a hefty portion of what we were told about the race onboard the airship. They could've just as easily spewed something about them needing males from other races to mate instead of explain that there are, in fact, male Viera out there, and go on about their habits and customs.
Honestly, we're at the point where there's enough pointing either way. It's Schrudinger's Male Viera - Viera are both genderlocked and not genderlocked until Yoshi-P opens the box at fanfest

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What I meant is that FFXIV is the only game to go in depth with male Viera's, even giving them a reason for why we probably never saw them in the games Viera are from. I don't recall them being mentioned in FFXII, FFTA and FFTA2. Never played FFXII:RW.
All we really knew about them prior to XIV is: they exist.

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Originally Posted by Xeno85

... it really says a lot when you think a company is basing their decisions solely on the opinions of you that more than likely does not exist to begin with. That's what I mean though, some good things are not good enough, you need all the good things to be satisfied. It's manic.

And sad to say I am not invested enough in this MMO to white knight it. I like it. But I am not going to get zealous about it. Pointing out asinine behavior and white knighting are two very different pieces of pie.

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One of the main reasons as to why the worry about a genderlock exists in the first place is specifically because of Yoshi's opinions on masculinity and waifus. That's the point I was trying to make.
I don't need all the good things. But give me too many of the bad things, and I'll pay someone else for my entertainment. How is that manic? It's simple business. In this case it might be the finally straw that breaks the camel's back for me. SE and Yoshi has disappointed and angered me on many occasions.

Assuming they are planning to gender lock both and they purposely put the error in there to try and lessen the impact at Tokyo Fan fest when its announced. I think they are either very short sighted and this is likely to blow up in their faces.

The problem is, I can't see why they would even want to purposely leak info in this way, unless its a red herring, similar to how some of the lines in the Viera lore regarding males could potentially be a red herring. At this point, i think all we can do is conjecture until JP fan fest. That said, if they do intend to Gender-lock both Viera and Hrothgar (If indeed Hrothgar is a thing and not simply a placeholder name) then they aren't lessening the backlash from not adding male Viera they are simply doubling it. For a team that has learned the hard way from 1.0 in not losing credibility with its player base, i do not think that this is something Yoshi P would do. Over the years there have been countless posts across many mediums around viera and always there has been a strong desire for males. This thread itself is testimony to how much appetite there is for Male Viera.

Personally, if they weren't going to add them why go to the effort of saying so much about them? Equally, where is the lore around Hrothgar? I cannot see them tacking it on in the final arc of the 4.5 story patch. Equally, every time they have added a race there have been breadcrumbs to follow to suggest they are being added. Unless i have missed something, these are not present. Though it does bring to mind some dialogue that was around during the Ridorana Lighthouse that listed the Ivilician races - I do not recall Hrothgar being among them. There is an argument to be made that the Hrothgar could be unrelated to Ivalice but, given the direction the expansion appears to be headed, there is little evidence to suggest any other plausible source. This of course, could change come JP Fan Fest.

Regardless, i personally hope we do not get any Gender-locked race. There is a lot of appetite for the male Viera and this will not be satisfied by adding a male of any other race. All that does is double the disappointment for those that want the counterparts that were not added. End of the day, there is little reason NOT to add them. Lore after all, is seldom set in stone and can be changed with very little effort, or indeed changed to fit a new situation.