[Critical] Male Viera height slider; tall option. Show your support.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I agree with you that scaling a character up and down isn't going to affect how armour fits (or we might not have a height setting at all) but setting the character's height range is going to be far more integral to the design process than "surface details" like scars and tattoos.

Height needs to be decided so the character's proportions can be set. They can't just set out designing the character at whatever shape they like and hope that later on they'll look alright when placed next to the other races.

At your example height scale, Viera already look wrong next to Elezen - or rather all the things that people think are wrong about Elezen designs look twice as wrong, where currently they get away with it because they are taller stretched-out versions of humans.

It's maybe possible as the meeting point between very tall Viera and short Elezen, as it is now for Highlanders and Elezen, but not to make them the same height range AND have Viera maxing out as the taller of the two.

When you started off saying they have a short option now and they should also be tall, I thought you'd assumed they were something short like Miqo'te in the form we'd seen. But if you were in fact interpreting them to be Elezen height and needing to be taller still? Yeah, nah. Something around the female height range is far more plausible. And still entirely the dev team's business.

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That chart I made with male Viera is my preferred height for them. From the beginning I stated that they could have the slider make them somewhat short/short but also make them tall. If someone here showed a male Viera height chart where they make them the same height as midlander would you shun them because it's his opinion?

Further
As it pertains to the proprotions in that height chart I made. No it wouldn't give them Elezen's bad proportions; have you made a female Roegadyn before?

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Why do you list hrothgar as a human option and list lalafel as popoto?

On the tall side the options are extremely stereotyped (you hate the idea of female Viera being stereotyped as shorter than the males) yet you like the idea of tall males being stereotyped as orc, lizard with scales/horns, animal, and lanky/giraffe elf? That's a double standard.

As for Highlander, many here pointed out the fact that Highlander is the average height, not midlander, mindlander is in fact a short option in FFXIV. I don't know why you keep bringing up real life as if people like Au ra, Lalafel, or hrothgar exist in real life.

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Because Lalafell are an obvious outlier when it comes to player race heights. Hrothgar fit very neatly into the spectrum of this discussed topic of height.

How is "lizard with scales/horns" a stereotype but "bunny with fuzzy ears" not? (neither is a stereotype but like wut?)

and read again what I said here for the highlander comment:

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Originally Posted by Roda

The two hyur clans should set the middle point for the racial scale spectrum (as humans are typically portrayed as the average options of different extremes and tropes) but right now they're pushed way farther to one side because of the abundance of so many different options of tall male characters.

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You only consider midlanders short because, (gasp!) there's so few options for short male characters. If hyur are supposed to represent the baseline average (as, ONCE AGAIN, is usually the purpose of human races in fantasies) and you want a short option that's fantastical, you're either a catboy, or a baby with a mustache. (and when in that quote did I mention real life? once again, try to not get hung up on words that aren't there.)

And like I've said, you were given 4 (and a half) chances out of seven to find something you like in tall races, but you keep nitpicking them so hard you'd resort to wanting to skew the design of a whole (yes whole, because it affects the females too) different race that you STILL don't even 100% like the design of even outside of the height, so really I don't think it's worth it to chase this Goldilocks perfection of yours.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I agree with you that scaling a character up and down isn't going to affect how armour fits (or we might not have a height setting at all) but setting the character's height range is going to be far more integral to the design process than "surface details" like scars and tattoos.

Height needs to be decided so the character's proportions can be set. They can't just set out designing the character at whatever shape they like and hope that later on they'll look alright when placed next to the other races.

At your example height scale, Viera already look wrong next to Elezen - or rather all the things that people think are wrong about Elezen designs look twice as wrong, where currently they get away with it because they are taller stretched-out versions of humans.

It's maybe possible as the meeting point between very tall Viera and short Elezen, as it is now for Highlanders and Elezen, but not to make them the same height range AND have Viera maxing out as the taller of the two.

When you started off saying they have a short option now and they should also be tall, I thought you'd assumed they were something short like Miqo'te in the form we'd seen. But if you were in fact interpreting them to be Elezen height and needing to be taller still? Yeah, nah. Something around the female height range is far more plausible. And still entirely the dev team's business.

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Ok so I don't wanna get anyone's hopes up (ordownifyouhavebadtaste) BUT I've been fooling around in krita to measure based on head size (usually that's the better determination of height in these things. The races all seem to be around the sameish headsizes, (yes even lalas and roes) give or take some variations), and 1, an elezen-sized male viera makes him look like some kind of freakish bobblehead, and seeing it even TALLER than a min-sized elezen is even more cartoonish with his head twice the size that it should be in this game. AND 2, putting his head to the scale of everyone else, he sits at around just taller than min-sized miqo'te to about at 50 of a midlander's height slider, which, imo, would be so freaking cool!

There's so much discussion in this thread... It's pretty obvious they are basically the same height as the females, maybe a tiny bit shorter or taller, they won't be super taller then them or super shorter either. Nothing will change that, so don't stress yourselves too much...

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Originally Posted by Starshower

There's so much discussion in this thread... It's pretty obvious they are basically the same height as the females, maybe a tiny bit shorter or taller, they won't be super taller then them or super shorter either. Nothing will change that, so don't stress yourselves too much...

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Minds won't be changed by discussion amongst ourselves. Some of us very headstrong in our beliefs
The devs and the release of features into our hands are the only way to prove anything right or wrong.

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Originally Posted by Starshower

There's so much discussion in this thread... It's pretty obvious they are basically the same height as the females, maybe a tiny bit shorter or taller, they won't be super taller then them or super shorter either. Nothing will change that, so don't stress yourselves too much...

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That's a lot of absolutes on something that's in development, not on live servers. Male Viera and female hrothgar were decisions that were "set in stone" as well because they didn't have the resources/funds to handle the amount of gear adding male Viera (and female hrothgar) would require. But here we are.

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Originally Posted by Roda

Because Lalafell are an obvious outlier when it comes to player race heights. Hrothgar fit very neatly into the spectrum of this discussed topic of height.

How is "lizard with scales/horns" a stereotype but "bunny with fuzzy ears" not? (neither is a stereotype but like wut?)

and read again what I said here for the highlander comment:

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If Lalafell are an obvious outlier, why are Roegadyn and Hrothgar not outliers? Hrothgar is literally an animal that's upright and can talk. And if you claim that it's because of height then Roegadyn would be an outlier as well because of height.

The stereotype of tall races comes into play when you say that you want female Viera to be taller than the males because you that doesn't exist yet in the female to male relationship; thus breaking the stereotype. Yet, the stereotype that I want to see broken is that tall races have to be world of warcraft races, Elezen being an "exception" (but even Elezen can be contested).

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Further
As it pertains to the proprotions in that height chart I made. No it wouldn't give them Elezen's bad proportions; have you made a female Roegadyn before?

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That is my point. It wouldn't give them Elezen proportions or any of the oversized races' proportions. But those proportions are the ones that make sense on a bigger-than-human race in the first place.

And I do actually have a female Roegadyn but she's a short one. On the rare occasions I've come across taller ones, they make her look short even though she's tall next to anyone else.

And as I wrote some time back, scaling an already tall race (with a head proportioned for being a tall race) is going to have less impact on the absolute size of the head compared to other races' heads. Which I suspect, without having visually tested it, is why they get away with having a larger height range in the first place.

And the other thing is, simply, they're Roegadyn. The race whose whole visual concept is being bulky oversized giants next to the others.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

That's a lot of absolutes on something that's in development, not on live servers. Male Viera and female hrothgar were decisions that were "set in stone" as well because they didn't have the resources/funds to handle the amount of gear adding male Viera (and female hrothgar) would require. But here we are.

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I say that because a lot of good comparisons were made... The one in this twitter thread https://twitter.com/devalentione/sta...71930834743300 really shows their height in a fair way...
Their comparison was basically perfect, without much room for interpretation. After seeing that thread it really removed any doubt I had about their height.

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Originally Posted by Starshower

I say that because a lot of good comparisons were made... The one in this twitter thread https://twitter.com/devalentione/sta...71930834743300 really shows their height in a fair way...
Their comparison was basically perfect, without much room for interpretation. After seeing that thread it really removed any doubt I had about their height.

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around same height would be perfect imo honestly. the race completed doesn‘t look weird as if they were too tall (like the visualization of Amnmaat) or miqo small (which yoshi-p wanted not to be too similar to)

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Originally Posted by Renik

Now... what you're asking for with this height is impossible, you have been told by several people that the race height is most likely decided, and a big part of the armor has already been adjusted, you have been told so even by a designer that worked for Disney, and me a professional software developer.

They most likely have a margin to work with, and they may be able to get between 2-3 cm up and down(and that doesn't mean the can go 4-6 up, and forget the down, that's not how it works), but this is only in case they actually have a margin, knowing SE they could very well be working on the limit.

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Akshualy. :p

The gear is usually shared amongst many races. A good chunk of gear is made only for:

• male Roegadyn
• male Hyur
• male Lalafell

depending on the gear you will get additional variants:

• female Hyur
• female Lalafell (rare)

Then you have headgear that is often made for each race individually. Like earrings need to go onto each type of ear in a certain position, but still can be shared by e.g. male and female Hyur or Lalafell respectively.

(If you want the sauce, you'll have to look for that yourself)


But the point is, you have gear that is scaled from the smallest female Au Ra to the tallest female Roegadyn.
That scaling is done with bones which are also tied to animations, they explained a little during the Fan Fest how that works, for those interested. Their gear will be shared with male Hyur.

From my own comparisons in the inn room, I'm quite sure they will be roughly the same as female Viera, the male Viera from the video being around 0 slider setting of female Viera.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That is my point. It wouldn't give them Elezen proportions or any of the oversized races' proportions. But those proportions are the ones that make sense on a bigger-than-human race in the first place.

And I do actually have a female Roegadyn but she's a short one. On the rare occasions I've come across taller ones, they make her look short even though she's tall next to anyone else.

And as I wrote some time back, scaling an already tall race (with a head proportioned for being a tall race) is going to have less impact on the absolute size of the head compared to other races' heads. Which I suspect, without having visually tested it, is why they get away with having a larger height range in the first place.

And the other thing is, simply, they're Roegadyn. The race whose whole visual concept is being bulky oversized giants next to the others.

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You're stating a lot of "maybes" and "suspects;" I only deal in absolutes. Maybes can be made up by anyone. I'll just use your line of thinking and suspect the game engine scales any head and body from tall to short or short to tall very well.

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Originally Posted by Starshower

I say that because a lot of good comparisons were made... The one in this twitter thread https://twitter.com/devalentione/sta...71930834743300 really shows their height in a fair way...
Their comparison was basically perfect, without much room for interpretation. After seeing that thread it really removed any doubt I had about their height.

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Those comparisons can't be called perfect, they've all been all over the place. Here's one I found on reddit
https://i.postimg.cc/CMJv3fWK/vierao...comparison.gif

We only have comparisons, not a benchmark.