Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So apparently rephrasing what someone else says means I take on a stance I made zero claim to. And it allows people to try to argue with me as if I took on that stance...even though I made absolutely no mention of it.

...okay...

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Did I say any of this? I said that you entered into a discussion; that opens you up to any questions that anyone may have for you. Please don’t put words into my mouth; you advocate against being rude, but it’s rude behavior to say I said something I didn’t actually say.

You offered input into the discussion, and then were asked further questions based on your response. They don’t have to be answered with regards to what you think another person or party thinks; you can simply respond to them with your own thoughts, or not even respond at all. Instead, you sought to debate why you should be asked questions in the first place for 2 1/2 pages.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

And I'm asking you why should the remaining players put up with someone who can't adapt mid-instance especially when their performance/dps is subpar. If you can't play properly while in any instance and can't change your rotation after your party had given you advice, you should get kicked.

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All they were doing was literally asking you, “What do you think?” They aren’t asking you about what so-and-so other poster thought, but what you think about the situation. Is it so difficult to just answer the question, regardless if it is related to the previous discussion Daibunnie was having with another poster? It’s a question for you. Just answer it instead of arguing “why are you asking me this” after you came into a discussion unprompted.



If you don’t want questions directed towards you—any questions at all—don’t enter into a discussion. It’s simple, really.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Because I can read and saw you misunderstood something. Being able to interpret something differently counts as being psychic now?

:confused:

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Except that's your own interpretation of their message and I responded to you based on those interpretations. If you don't have anything to say, then don't, instead of derailing the thread about whatever it is you're trying to argue.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I assume she hit her post limit.

Tossing around that much misinformation and coddling will catch up with you apparently.

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I eat, work, sleep and do other things too. I think I've replied to a lot of people here, despite the bad words, I keep quoting what I think are the interesting bits of each of your replies and ignore the not so friendly remarks (I still read them, but I'm not going to spend time replying to them).

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

And I'm asking you why should the remaining players put up with someone who can't adapt mid-instance especially when their performance/dps is subpar. If you can't play properly while in any instance and can't change your rotation after your party had given you advice, you should get kicked.

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You want players to listen to your advice, but you tolerate nothing other than immediate 100% efficiency from them when it comes to putting such advice in practice. That's not realistic, and that's not how people learn to adapt to new stuff. Not like you care from what I gather.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You want players to listen to your advice, but you tolerate nothing other than immediate 100% efficiency from them when it comes to putting such advice in practice.

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Speaking for myself, I don’t expect 100th percentile play. Honestly, no one here does, I don’t think. The insinuation that we think anything less than 100% isn’t enough is inaccurate, in my opinion. Perfection is unobtainable.

But when I give advice to someone clearly struggling, it’s very annoying to me to see them blatantly ignoring it. Especially if it’s something that is causing the party to wipe. There are also some environments where players shouldn’t be giving other players advice on the basics of mechanics and job rotations; the players should already have an understanding of both. Of course, I’m referring to Extreme trials and Savage/Ultimate raids, here: content that requires competency and a higher standard of play.

It’s fairly easy to tell when players are trying to put the advice you gave them into action, and when they are simply just ignoring you. The latter is extremely rude, and it’s one of the many reasons why people no longer want to help, but instead opt to say nothing, leave, or kick the offender.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You want players to listen to your advice, but you tolerate nothing other than immediate 100% efficiency from them when it comes to putting such advice in practice. That's not realistic, and that's not how people learn to adapt to new stuff. Not like you care from what I gather.

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Never did I mention that a player learning should immediately have 100% efficiency. If I did have that mindset, almost every sprout player I see in Sastasha would've gotten kicked by now. This isn't new stuff that people are having to learn, its the same skills they had access to after reaching level 70. Is shield lob or rage of halone a new skill for a level 67 pld? If it is, you can easily say that player hasn't been using their entire skill kit efficiently. And you're right, I don't care if someone managed to learn something or not from any advice given to them especially since it's likely I'll never see that player again after that instance in df.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

There are also some environments where players shouldn’t be giving other players advice on the basics of mechanics and job rotations; the players should already have an understanding of both. Of course, I’m referring to Extreme trials and Savage/Ultimate raids, here: content that requires competency and a higher standard of play.

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I never argued over a PF party. In a PF you are on your perfect right to decide whether someone is pulling their weight or not, I still think kicking should be done in a polite manner, but the rules of a PF should always be respected. If the host is attempting to create a farm party and somebody who hasn't cleared (and has no clue how the fight works) joins, there's no valid excuse there. Same goes for a static. You set the rules. People either respect them or you leave them out.

But a dungeon with random people is a different sort of scenario. You don't set the rules there, you just queue with 3 other people and try to enjoy the instance (or get it done as fast as possible in the scenario you are just there for your daily tomes), that's where I keep saying people in general should be respectful and tolerant, because you'll keep coming across very different people, from speedrunners that will evaporate packs of mobs and bosses in the blink of an eye to clumsy healers that will fail to heal a moderate burst and possibly cause a wipe. Some people even use level 70 dungeons as training grounds to get familiar with their rotations so that they can later feel more confident against EX Primals or savage; and that's completely natural because dummies do not provide you with a real context where you have to handle your rotation all while dealing with a certain amount of mechanics (even if they are simple). You are setting up for disappointment if you expect high level of gameplay in dungeons. And "acceptable levels of gameplay" falls into the ambiguous category. "Acceptable levels of gameplay" will vastly differ from one player to another.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

I never argued over a PF party. In a PF you are on your perfect right to decide whether someone is pulling their weight or not, I still think kicking should be done in a polite manner, but the rules of a PF should always be respected. If the host is attempting to create a farm party and somebody who hasn't cleared (and has no clue how the fight works) joins, there's no valid excuse there. Same goes for a static. You set the rules. People either respect them or you leave them out.

But a dungeon with random people is a different sort of scenario. You don't set the rules there, you just queue with 3 other people and try to enjoy the instance (or get it done as fast as possible in the scenario you are just there for your daily tomes), that's where I keep saying people in general should be respectful and tolerant, because you'll keep coming across very different people, from speedrunners that will evaporate packs of mobs and bosses in the blink of an eye to clumsy healers that will fail to heal a moderate burst and possibly cause a wipe. Some people even use level 70 dungeons as training grounds to get familiar with their rotations so that they can later feel more confident against EX Primals or savage; and that's completely natural because dummies do not provide you with a real context where you have to handle your rotation all while dealing with a certain amount of mechanics (even if they are simple). You are setting up for disappointment if you expect high level of gameplay in dungeons. And "acceptable levels of gameplay" falls into the ambiguous category. "Acceptable levels of gameplay" will vastly differ from one player to another.

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Except no one has argued otherwise. They simply expressed a limit. I'll once again cite my own experiences. After dying three times despite rotating CDs—even to the point of over-mitigating, I eventually called out the healer, saying, "Can you actually heal?" Considering my friend was the other healer, who was complaining over voice how much work she had to do to compensate, we both knew the issue and were annoyed. This person wasn't new nor did the say anything up until that point. They simply weren't healing me after tank busters. Even new healers should know basic things like that. I ultimately kicked them when we wiped for the third time as I died to autos. You can call my outburst rude all you fancy, but I lost patience. There's a stark difference between that and harassment. Which is what prompted this whole exchange to begin with.

Queuing through Duty Finder doesn't mean you should tolerate everything that happens to come your way. There comes a point where tolerance has its limits.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

I never argued over a PF party. In a PF you are on your perfect right to decide whether someone is pulling their weight or not . . . .But a dungeon with random people is a different sort of scenario. You don't set the rules there

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So, are you saying that expecting basic competency in something like a level-capped dungeon is wrong? Should we not expect healers to know how to keep a tank/the party alive? What about the tank? Should we not expect them to hold aggro and use cooldowns appropriately? Should we not expect DPS to AOE in the appropriate situations? Because this is the type of play I expect. If people fail to meet it, I am well within my right to be dissatisfied. Randoms or not.

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Some people even use level 70 dungeons as training grounds to get familiar with their rotations so that they can later feel more confident against EX Primals or savage; and that's completely natural because dummies do not provide you with a real context where you have to handle your rotation all while dealing with a certain amount of mechanics (even if they are simple).

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There’s a vast difference in “practicing a level 70 rotation” and “failing to do something as simple as AOEing when appropriate”. Or “failing to use cooldowns when appropriate”. Or “failing to make appropriate use of regens/shields/healing abilities”. All of these examples are things that players have access to far below level 70. Most DPS have AOE skills sub-level 30, yet there are so many in Expert Roulette that insist on single-targeting mobs in a pack of 6, 7, or even 8 mobs.

There’s also a huge difference in “practicing a level 70 rotation” and “failing a mechanic that has been present multiple times in multiple instances before now”. Do you know how many players I see in V12N run away with the stack marker? Yet stack markers have been encountered since level 60+ content repeatedly (Void Ark, Final Steps of Faith, Sirensong Sea). To name an even more common one, just the basic orange AOE circle. Yet how many people fail to dodge those? Expecting people to dodge the pretty orange circles on the ground is not a high demand.

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You are setting up for disappointment if you expect high level of gameplay in dungeons. And "acceptable levels of gameplay" falls into the ambiguous category. "Acceptable levels of gameplay" will vastly differ from one player to another.

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I’d wager to say that “performing the basics of your job at level 70” probably fit into a lot of player’s “acceptable levels of gameplay” for dungeons. There’s no excuse to be level 70 and performing a single-target rotation in a huge pack. There’s no excuse to be level 70 and not using your defensive cooldowns or not maintaining aggro. There’s no excuse to be level 70 and using only Medica II to heal a tank.

You probably think I’m exaggerating, but I can assure you I’m not. There’s an entire thread dedicated to DF horror stories, and the above examples I have listed are far more than just random examples—they’re common occurrences.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Except no one has argued otherwise. They simply expressed a limit. I'll once again cite my own experiences. After dying three times despite rotating CDs—even to the point of over-mitigating, I eventually called out the healer, saying, "Can you actually heal?" Considering my friend was the other healer, who was complaining over voice how much work she had to do to compensate, we both knew the issue and were annoyed. This person wasn't new nor did the say anything up until that point. They simply weren't healing me after tank busters. Even new healers should know basic things like that. I ultimately kicked them when we wiped for the third time as I died to autos. You can call my outburst rude all you fancy, but I lost patience. There's a stark difference between that and harassment. Which is what prompted this whole exchange to begin with.

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You had two healers, so it was a party of eight players. That's not a DF dungeon. If your friend had to do a lot of extra work because the other healer was slacking, it's only natural they were not happy about it. I don't know the details, but from what I've read, personally, I wouldn't have asked the other healer "can you actually heal?", I would've been more specific. In which parts of the encounter/primal is your friend struggling more? (because of the other healer slacking or playing poorly), I would've spotted those dangerous moments where your friend felt overwhelmed and then asked the other healer if they could cast an extra medica II in X phase, or have the tank topped in X tank buster while your friend handles the aoes. If you are more specific on where you want others to improve, it'll help them. It won't have any effect on the people that are deliberately slacking, but it'll help greatly on the people that are just confused on how to handle a situation and don't know any better.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Queuing through Duty Finder doesn't mean you should tolerate everything that happens to come your way. There comes a point where tolerance has its limits.

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The only thing I don't enjoy seeing in a DF party are people insulting each other, the rest I can handle, but that's just very personal. Up to you what you tolerate and what you don't, but I think it's wise to set the bar a lot lower in such content than in a raiding/PF farm party scenario.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You had two healers, so it was a party of eight players. That's not a DF dungeon. If your friend had to do a lot of extra work because the other healer was slacking, it's only natural they were not happy about it. I don't know the details, but from what I've read, personally, I wouldn't have asked the other healer "can you actually heal?", I would've been more specific. In which parts of the encounter/primal is your friend struggling more? (because of the other healer slacking or playing poorly), I would've spotted those dangerous moments where your healer felt overwhelmed and then asked the other healer if they could cast an extra medica II in X phase, or have the tank topped in X tank buster while I handle the aoes. If you are more specific on where you want others to improve, it'll help them. It won't have any effect on the people that are deliberately slacking, but it'll help greatly on the people that are just confused on how to handle a situation and don't know any better.

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When the MT (me) is dying to auto attacks, telling the other person to heal is the criticism. A simple Cure II or Regen would solve that problem. Regardless, this isn't something that should be happening in O11N. This is healing 101, i.e. heal the person taking damage from the boss. If I have to sit and coach you through the basics of healing, I've collectively wasted seven other people's time because you couldn't be bothered to learn how your job functions before stepping into max level content. If you're confused about the tank taking damage, especially after it happened repeatedly in the same spots due to multiple wipes. You have no business being there. Just because it's Duty Finder doesn't give you a blank cheque to do whatever and except no to annoy people. If you want to take the time to coach them through it, by all means. I'm under no obligation to teach someone how to play White Mage at level 70. Hence why I kicked them.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

The only thing I don't enjoy seeing in a DF party are people insulting each other, the rest I can handle, but that's just very personal. Up to you what you tolerate and what you don't, but I think it's wise to set the bar a lot lower in such content than in a raiding/PF farm party scenario.

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My bar is incredibly low for DF. Some people manage to perform even worse...