CG Midlander

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

It could have been Midgardsomr after all. Think of it like this: You know Primals exist. You encounter a being that is totally overwhelming and crashes your greatest floating citadel. Mistaking that being for a Primal could easily happen, I mean, we thought he was a Primal too, so chances are, it was just a misunderstanding that wasn't cleared and was then written into the history books by Eorzean historians.

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...yeah, I could buy that. Plausible.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

It could have been Midgardsomr after all. Think of it like this: You know Primals exist. You encounter a being that is totally overwhelming and crashes your greatest floating citadel. Mistaking that being for a Primal could easily happen, I mean, we thought he was a Primal too, so chances are, it was just a misunderstanding that wasn't cleared and was then written into the history books by Eorzean historians.

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Except Midgarsormr's sole purpose was to protect the seal at Silver Tear lake not Ala Mhigo two places that are far apart and Gaius wasn't in Agria , so it can't be the same thing.

I can't imagine the Empire - which knew from a Primal in the first place because they'd encountered them before - would mistake Midgardsormr for a Primal. More damning is the fact that there were clearly two separate events - one 15 years ago when the Empire encountered an unexpected Primal, and then another 10 years ago at Silvertear Lake, and I don't think Midgardsormr would have taken off from guard duty to go and put the fear of huge-ass dragon into the Empire at Ala Mhigo! (It -would- explain why the Empire attacked Mor Dhona when they resumed the assault 5 years later rather than move directly south to Gridania, but perhaps - just as a counter-theory - they wanted to beeline for Eorzea's rich ceruleum reserves in Thanalan, and not have to deal with the very protracted siege of the Black Shroud until later? They also could have been after some sort of MacGuffin in Mor Dhona itself all along that they knew about and your average Lalafell on the street didn't, as well. I do truly expect this to be a plot point in ARR; it's the sort of discrepancy this writing team loves creating and then explaining later on.)

We definitely don't have enough information to make any reasonable guesses as to the identity of the mystery Primal, but I think it's fairly unambiguous that it wasn't Midgardsormr and our collective theory that it was was reasonable when the discrepancy in the timeline was less obvious and when we didn't know Midgardsormr was not in fact a Primal, and is shot to pieces like a dead dragon wrapped around a fallen airship now. ;_;

Replying to a few quotes:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

For those of you digging through the four city missions before the paths converge, is anyone getting any feeling about how far back these echoes are going?

Sthalmann falls from grace and becomes Rostnsthal
Sthalmann's "bill" has become Rostnsthal's "debts"

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Is there anything supporting they're the same person? I know that Sthalmann does appear in Echo cutscenes quite often and it's well known he's trying to overthrow the then MALE Admiral, but he does appear in some cutscenes that don't appear to be in the past, such as the one where he's looking for Emerick on The Executioner or where he's talking to the head of the Blacksmithing guild. The last cutscene with him and Y'shtola also appears to be in the present, even though you do step back in the past with an Echo vision.

Also, Rostnsthal appears during the same time you're on the ship coming into Limsa, he appears in one of the main story quests, and he's also heavily involved in the Marauder quests. It's my belief that the original main story and the class quests were all designed with the same timeframe in mind, so I just wonder if I'm missing something that's linking these two together. The only thing I've seen that could support this is the last cutscene in the Marauder class quest line where Rostnsthal is trying to give that officer of the Barracudas some dirt on one of the other pirate captains, but it doesn't seem like he was trying to get back in with them; all he wanted was some coin.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

You were rattled by the echo, not because you had an echo-in-an-echo, but because you managed to change history, which is something that normally isn't supposed to happen. A paradox mid-echo would likely knock you out as history re-aligns itself.

Any chance people can apply this concept to the Limsa or Ul'dahn stories?

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I can't apply this to the main storylines, but in the Alchemist class quests, you end up inside the kid's mind and after all is said and done, you're able to jar him from his comatose state that no medicines or anything else could fix. This is the only instance I remember where you using the Echo directly changed something, even though it's not supposed to.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

It could have been Midgardsomr after all. Think of it like this: You know Primals exist. You encounter a being that is totally overwhelming and crashes your greatest floating citadel. Mistaking that being for a Primal could easily happen, I mean, we thought he was a Primal too, so chances are, it was just a misunderstanding that wasn't cleared and was then written into the history books by Eorzean historians.

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Except Midgardsomr's husk of a body was left behind in the wake of the destruction; something that typically doesn't happen since a Primal's aether gets released and it disappears like van Darnus did.

I would like Ferne to answer this as a side question:
Was the End of an Era trailer done with the new Luminous Engine?

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Is there anything supporting they're the same person? <...> he does appear in some cutscenes that don't appear to be in the past, such as the one where he's looking for Emerick on The Executioner or where he's talking to the head of the Blacksmithing guild. The last cutscene with him and Y'shtola also appears to be in the present, even though you do step back in the past with an Echo vision.

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Yes, I believe that it's no less than 100% certain they're the same character. I admit now that I haven't been through the Marauder quests, and this is something I'll do at a later point if what is below doesn't convince you.

Let's start with his name. Roegadyn names are based on their ancient language, which is basically just made up of various Germanic influences. Many names are confirmed, others you can figure out easily. Rostnsthalmann's is among the confirmed, but for the sake of completeness, let's use our Admiral's name for an introduction to this concept.

Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn can be split into the ancient Roegadyn words merl (sea), wyb (wife), bloe (blue), fhis (fish) and wyn (daughter). These correspond to words from various ages of Germanic influence, mer (ocean), weib (woman, another word for wife; eg "my woman"), blau (blue), fisch (fish), and wyn, which I'm not entirely sure about but hesitate making connections to because I'm pretty sure it implies daughters are lesser and kind of thought of in monetary terms. Anyway, moving along...

Sthalmann's name comes from the German words sthal (steel) and (Proto-Germanic) mann (man). This is the name he lived under when he able to wear it with pride as Commodore of Limsa Lominsa. However, as Commodore, he had the Admiral assassinated and tried to take the position as his own without a fair Trident by colluding with pirates and stealing The Key. There's no recovering from that - and due to his being caught, he lost everything. His second in command, Reyner, was given his position, he was exiled from the Barracudas, and is thought of city-wide as trash. This is why he changes his name to Rostnsthal, which is made up of the words Rostn (rusty) and Sthal (steel). Thus, because of his shame, he has gone from Man of Steel to Rusted Steel.

Next, almost every echo you enter where Sthalmann is Commodore is triggered by Rostnsthal's presence. Shapeless Melody even underwent changes a while after release to add a tutorial, and in that tutorial we get a much better idea of where this echo event came from. Rostnsthal comes below deck and tells you that he's only seen a storm like this once before, and many people died that night. You go above deck, echo starshower begins, and Sthalmann is present. In this cutscene, you see him firing his weapon. When you enter the Musketeer's guild and take a firing stance for the current Commodore, Reyner (who was Sthalmann's number two), it reminds him of Sthalmann and you enter an echo where he recruits the Sanguine Siren spy. Reyner then tells you that you need a new mentor, as he knows that Sthalmann is a complete disgrace (rusted steel).

At the Blacksmith guild, Rostnsthal brushes past you to confront the guild leader, which triggers an echo where he is discussing the building of a ship to join the Seal Rock expedition, which he is told has been wiped out in this very conversation. We exit this echo, and Rostnstal is engaged in an argument with the guildmaster over whether or not to pay for this very ship, which sunk due to quality control issues stemming from his shoddy investment. When we first visit the Astalicia, we are punched by Rostnsthal, which triggers an echo when he, as Sthalmann, punches Emerick while "arresting" him on this ship some time earlier.

When we visit the ship out at sea, we enter an echo there, as well, except it's either Hob's or the current Commodore's. Neither pirate spy is on the ship at the time, which is why we have to make up an excuse for the Barracuda's when Hob gets arrested. This was all triggered by the sighting of the Serpent Reavers, who last appeared when Travachant attacked the ships. You never see Hob give an order from any of the three ships in this scene.

Take this back to the first time we speak to Baderon, where he tells us that we're not the first person to ask about sea serpents. This causes him to remember being interrogated by Y'shtola, who was only in town for two weeks back when Sthalmann was commodore. This can be shown by Baderon referring to the Admiral as a HE, which we know was some time ago because Merlwyb won the last legal Trident after Sthalmann's execution of the previous admiral after he successfully takes The Key with the help of both pirate faction spies.

The final Sthalmann echo is triggered by Sisipu's memories of her uncle. Sispiu fishes as the same place her uncle used to take her - a little tidepool where the Sahagin dare not go because of the shark toxin. This is where the three colluded together. This is where it gets hairy.

We know from Rostnsthal's echoes how Sthalmann planned to steal the key, from the Commodore's echoes how he used the pirates to do it, and from Sispu's memories where they met to do it. In the last Commodore echo, we're shown that Sthalmann went to Sispu's fishing spot to confront Y'shtola. When we get there, the only person around is Blackburn.

I believe it his he that triggers our last Sthalmann echo. Blackburn suspects us of having the echo, and is waiting for us at this location. After he tells us that he's sure we're going to understand soon, we pass out and enter the culmination of this story, where Travachant makes off with the key, and we wake up back at Baderon's. I think it was Blackburn who first discovered what happened here, as he and Milifinia already know about Y'shtola and her loss of the key.

Again, I could be wrong about any of this, but I'm damn sure that Sthalmann is Rostnsthal a few years(?) back and that we don't meet Y'shtola in real time throughout this entire thing.

I just can't figure out exactly how many damn years ago it was.

Also, just look at them - same haircut, same beardline, same eye color, same skin tone, and the same eye scar, which you can see the bottom of sticking out of Rostnsthal's eyepatch (might need to right-click "View Image" and look at the big versions to see the scar tip).

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/.../Sthalmann.png
http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...Rostnsthal.png

A wonderful read! You're amazing, Moosey! <3

In the movie of the FFXIV forums, Anonymoose is played by David Suchet.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

In the movie of the FFXIV forums, Anonymoose is played by David Suchet.

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Please tell me this is in his Hercule Poirot era.

http://thegrimview.files.wordpress.c...-678856224.jpg


Because I can totally see that....

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...avidSuchet.png

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

~snip~

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That was a nice read indeed...but i have a question.. all those echos you experience you don't get the pop up menu if you wanna use the power of the echo or not right? in that case it would be like Gridania , except Gridania is more seamless which leads me to think you only go back in time hours , a couple days max not years like Limsa