Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Alenore

It shows us a flawed Venat, but it works, characters obviously not always making the best decisions.

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Except we don't get "flawed" Venat. We get 'tragic heroine' Venat who is venerated. Despite what's been said in interviews and the seeming walk back of the positive narrative surrounding her, all throughout 6.0 she is treated as benevolent, kind, loving, and good, who made the best and only choice (despite evidence to the contrary). The Scions kick into full hypocrite mode in regards to her despite the fact she is the embodiment of everything they have historically fought against and condemned, the WoL is not given any dialog options that aren't favorable to her, and Emet-Selch's characterization was completely broken in order to "commend" her in UT. The single only person who calls out what she's done is herself and she has no regrets, her ending is exactly what she wanted.

Nuance was stripped out of EW in order to prop up her character, so we're left with what is essentially an antagonist (regardless of whether or not she was well-intentioned) being presented as a protagonist and there was too much dissonance for a lot of people for me to agree that it 'worked'.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

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The simplest reference is from your first meeting with Hyth 2.0 in Amaurot.

'There were, however, those who disagreed with this plan. They argued that enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark - that this new world should belong to the lives newly born. These dissidents surrendered their life energies in the creation of Hydaelyn, an incarnation of their opposing belief. And for the first time in history, our people stood divided... Know you, then, how this conflict ended?'

It's worth noting of course that Hyth was killed off in the first set of sacrifices, so he strictly speaking wouldn't have been around for any of this. But Hyth 2.0's viewpoint is probably a reflection of how Emet perceived their respective goals.

I think that creating a task force of 'Scion-like Amaurotians' creates its own set of problems. The Ascians struggled enormously with the question of whether we could even be considered actual living beings, as Emet casually uses this to justify the murder of seven planets filled with people. A lot of this comes down to the simple fact that their society equates aether with power, much like the Garleans value strength above all else. Even Hythlodaeus considers himself to be inferior by virtue of having reduced aether reserves compared to Emet. But everything that we've seen recently suggests the opposite, that dynamis is the more powerful and more abundant energy source. I would really be fascinated to see a culture built around dynamis manipulation, as they may very well have the same sort of misconceptions about us, except over our souls being needlessly dense.

Most of the arguments against Venat's plan come down to whether you unquestioningly trust the Convocation's judgement or not. But I think the underlying message is that while the Amaurotians may appear 'god-like', they're still human and fallible. I'll be especially interested to see what the motivations of their Speaker are around Pandaemonium.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

We are not Azem, especially not when Azem exists in the story as a distinct (if unseen) character who is talked about separately. We do not have their powers or their memories, or even their entire soul. Emet and Hyth are long-term friends with Azem but have only just met us.

Just because we look like Azem and remind people of Azem does not make us Azem. We are the inheritor of their legacy but a separate person.

It doesn't serve as a "universal noun for the player character" because it refers to someone else.

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Well, we could still be that Azem - it just might not have happened yet (;

But I’m fine with us being called WOL for the time being…

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Originally Posted by Lyth

A lot of this comes down to the simple fact that their society equates aether with power, much like the Garleans value strength above all else. Even Hythlodaeus considers himself to be inferior by virtue of having reduced aether reserves compared to Emet.

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hythlodaeus holds an extremely high government position, is never shown to be disrespected by anybody (if anything people think very highly of him, he was nominated to have one of the top positions in governance and only didn't get it because he refused, emet-selch thinks the world of him) and there's an entire sidequest in amaurot about the amaurotines making accommodations for people who aren't skilled at using aether. that he has low self-esteem has no correlation to others' perceptions of him or broader society, just like anyone in any position in our society can be afflicted with depression.

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Most of the arguments against Venat's plan come down to whether you unquestioningly trust the Convocation's judgement or not.

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lmao. nah

Hyth has a rare aetheric talent for identifying souls that nobody other than Emet has. You would expect that his other qualities as an individual, least of which include his intellect, knowledge of tactics, and diplomacy would make him recognize his own value as a potential Convocation member. His inferiority complex is absolutely a reflection of his society's value system.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Hyth has a rare aetheric talent for identifying souls that nobody other than Emet has. You would expect that his other qualities as an individual, least of which include his intellect, knowledge of tactics, and diplomacy would make him recognize his own value as a potential Convocation member. His inferiority complex is absolutely a reflection of his society's value system.

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that's not how human brains with depression work. objectively. i've had loved ones list out my own strengths and positive qualities, i know objectively they're not really incorrect, and, surprise surprise, i'm still depressed and deal with low self-esteem.

i would be more inclined to believe his inferiority complex is a reflection of more than his own brain if we ever saw any other ancient, ever, talking down to him for being unable to use aether well.

I don't recall any official materials stating that Hythlodaeus suffered from MDD, and I certainly can't see how you'd correlate his experiences to the DSM/ICD criteriae.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't recall any official materials stating that Hythlodaeus suffered from MDD, and I certainly can't see how you'd correlate his experiences to the DSM/ICD criteriae.

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I don’t recall any official materials stating that Hythlodaeus’ inferiority complex is absolutely a reflection of his society's value system.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Except we don't get "flawed" Venat. We get 'tragic heroine' Venat who is venerated. Despite what's been said in interviews and the seeming walk back of the positive narrative surrounding her, all throughout 6.0 she is treated as benevolent, kind, loving, and good, who made the best and only choice (despite evidence to the contrary).

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Been replaying EW recently, and the craziest thing to me related to this is the fact that Krile praises her like a sycophant.

In the level 83 quests, Venat takes over Krile's body, uses almost all of her aether to teleport to Tower of Bab-il, and then to redirect Fandaniel and Zenos to land a crater away. Leaves the body like, "I asked much of her." Krile is then bedridden to recover for a bit, and compares it to G'raha Tia nearly killing himself to give all of the people in Tower of Zot a cushy landing.

So Venat literally almost kills Krile.

Later on at the level 89 quests after the Garlemald Final Days instance, the WoL informs all the Scions about their Elpis ventures. During the following discussion Krile asks, "Do you suppose Hydaelyn's given up her pursuit of Meteion?" You're given dialogue choices to respond to this. They are:

1. The Venat I know would never give up! (The WoL has known her for a day and a half. Simp much?)
2. No, but Meteion is still out there.

Selecting 2 yields this response from Krile:

"Aye, though not for lack of trying on Hydaelyn's part. Surely, that's why She used me as a conduit for Her will, and provided such clues as the Elpis flower. I believe She has been waiting... ...For mankind to answer Hermes's question."

More discussion about how to reach/deal with Meteion follows, and then the optional talking with the Scions in-between quests yields this from Krile:

"After you left for Garlemald, I went to Labyrinthos and tried to reach Hydaelyn using the Elpis flowers. Alas, my attempts were in vain. I can only assume that She spent a vast amount of Her power in the confrontation with Fandaniel and is presently unable to communicate. Indeed as Her presence left my body, I could feel how faint it had grown..."

So... after Venat used almost all of Krile's corporeal aether, Krile still thinks that Hydaelyn was using her own power, that Hydaelyn is on the verge of fading away, so much so that she cannot talk to us. Turns out not to be the case. Krile continues to be a lemming.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Been replaying EW recently, and the craziest thing to me related to this is the fact that Krile praises her like a sycophant.

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Krile is basically just Minfilia 2.0, or Mini-filia. :P It's why I don't like her. The end of ShB they're supposed to be questioning Hydaelyn's motivations after discovering she's a primal only for Krile to find her so irresistibly charming she gives her body to her.

The Scions have always been zealous towards Hydaelyn, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised when it comes to her all logic and conviction go straight out the window. The fact that they never had an issue with her telling Minfilia to kill herself or abandoning her until she let Hydaelyn use her body as a vessel is hand waved as Minfilia "following her heart" and somehow "free will" (despite Minfilia initially yelling "No!"). Thancred, the one Scion who should have anger issues towards her due to his obsession with Minfilia, refuses to even think about it (literally, he says as much after Qitana Ravel). Minfilia is Trashcan Man from The Stand, "My life for you!" and Thancred just goes along with it.

I still maintain that EW would make a lot more sense if Hydaelyn tempered and it's laughable to me that she is seemingly the only primal in existence with no negative side effects. Hell, Emet essentially describes Venat as a Mary Sue in Elpis. The whole thing is just ridiculous to me. I've never seen a narrative so contorted to try to force people to love a character as much as EW is.

At least Ardbert was based.