This is probably the ONE thing that Yoshi P has been pretty good about I think. In that... "as long as you dont talk about it in game or let others know you are using a third party Parser, cool. BUT I WILL NOT EVER add an ingame parser myself". He is absolutely right and he most likely speaks and determines this based on personal experience. In game parsers will 100% be used more for negativity then positivity. This is a classic case of using apparent bias to try to only highlight the very limited "positive" outcomes of an ingame parser when the negative ones very clearly outnumber the minuscule "positivity" that an ingame parser "might" bring...to an extreme overly sensitive player base.
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12-05-2015, 02:39 AMDenebPunkin
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12-05-2015, 02:43 AMAvidriaDid you really just equate someone's comment on a video game forum to crimes against humanity?Quote:
Originally Posted by UBERHAXED
Seriously?
Theories are not facts. They are a system of ideas and assumptions about something - in this case, educated assumptions about the "ideal" rotation based on the potency of abilities. They are not absolute, be-all-end-all unalterable truths. Claiming that a theory can be proven inaccurate through testing is hardly an absurd assertion to make. -
12-05-2015, 03:03 AMOdettExcept that parsers already exist. What TC is asking for is a way to see their numbers so they don't have to bother their PC friends every time they want to test their numbers, because in that sense, we console players are at a disadvantage. People have stated the positive outcomes of a parser again and again so I will not do that in this reply. Parsers aren't going to turn people evil or anything, and that is such a misconception that so many players have. Parsers are a tool that have many positive outcomes, jerks will be jerks, parsers or not. You will still be able to report players for harassment like you do now, that will not change.Quote:
Originally Posted by DenebPunkin
What a mass access to parsers WILL cause, that some players might not like, is bring about a certain level of transparency to DPS players, but again, why should that not be implemented? Tanks have responsibilities and it's clear when they're underperforming, and same goes with healers. The DPS role is not something you go to when you want to be absolved of duties. DPS checks are a thing and DPS players that are not playing at the level that they should, should be addressed, like tanks and healers already are. -
12-05-2015, 03:07 AMStupiduglytaru
Honestly does the anti parser side just want a on screen pop to say excellent, great, amazing everytime they press a button?
When mch was first introduced, it was excluded from most content due to its low dps, non parser uses and parser uses both excluded this job from PF groups. Can you explain why this was the case?
If you are anti parser did you also follow this community wide exclusion?
I faced so much abuse why I played this job, just for being one and it was actually parser users that came to my rescue, in a Alex 1 normal run we enrages. The mnk immediately called for me to be kicked as mch was shit dps. A parser user kindly informed him I was highest dps......by a long way -
12-05-2015, 03:30 AMKaitlanKelaThis gives the benefit of benchmarks for reasonable performance for people who want to self-improve, but limits how transparent your numbers are. IMO, this solve's OP's frustration with minimal opportunity for abuse. I think it's a good compromise and I'm kind of bumping this because I would seriously like to know if anyone sees any flaws with this? It kinda got buried without any feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaitlanKela
I do want to make the point that I feel like it's silly for people to not want to introduce helpful tools into the game because it may make people 'toxic'. People are already toxic and people will always be toxic. I don't think that's a good reason to deprive the community of useful content. Personally, I always advocate for communication, fairness, and general decency on the internet, but I'm realist and I don't expect to see it all the time. I think if more people took that kind of mentality a lot of the anguish here could be avoided. -
12-05-2015, 03:50 AMKaurieI hadn't replied, as others have suggested similar things and I've expressed my concerns with it numerous times.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaitlanKela
if you click my name and see my posts, you'll easily find a few I am sure. However, the TLDR Is that I believe a personal parser will cause more problems for harassment than a group parser, and I think this because it will increase frustration amongst players. Studies have shown that frustration has been linked to destructive behaviour in video games. Further, I do not think that a personal parser would really benefit the pro-parser crowd to the appropriate levels of what a parser is useful for. In other words, it's more of a lose-lose than a win-win.
While I fundamentally agree with the statement that some people are already toxic, the point comes that this behavior may increase. I think a good analogy is gun availability. Having guns increases homicide rates significantly (look at US homicide rates compared to other countries). However, that does not mean that homicides are exclusive to gun availability (people get guns illegally, people kill with knives etc etc.) All of that said, I am anti-gun and pro-parser. This is because the negative of homicides is significantly worse than the negative of harassment. Further, guns are designed to be used against others, where parsers are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaitlanKela
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12-05-2015, 03:51 AMDenebPunkinPeople have stated a positive outcome.. not positive outcomes. The negatives FAR outweigh any "positive" it "may" bring to the table. You want DPS to get better, have Yoshi P force them to go through tutorials that show them the simple rotations, the positionals required and the weaving of skills between other skills. To assume that by adding an app that throws numbers out will somehow magically make all DPSers better is a false conclusion. And as you said, jerks will be jerks.. and now you are giving these jerks more tools to be even bigger jerks with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
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12-05-2015, 03:56 AMKaurieIt's about the same as concluding adding an app that throws numbers out will somehow magically make everyone jerks. Neither is true; however, both are partially true. The app may make some people better, and the app may make some people more toxic. However, it's possible that the app will reduce toxicity in some scenarios (such as being able to discuss DPS rather than blindly kicking or raging). YoshiP himself stated that the userbase of FFXIV tends to be more mature than the average MMO, why don't we prove him right? Further (as noted 100x in this thread), there is already harassment in the game and already ways to address said harassment.Quote:
Originally Posted by DenebPunkin
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12-05-2015, 04:10 AMKaitlanKelaAll good points, thank you for the feedback! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
What I'm getting is that you (or maybe you're just representing the other perspective, I'm not sure?) are concerned that this will magnify harassment (either by the tool itself being abused or because of an increase in frustration as a result of the tool being abused)? Is there a reason you think that making parser-based harassment (and retaliatory lashing-out) a ban-able offense wouldn't curb the abuse at least to the level of 'toxicity' that we're already seeing? I'm no expert, but using parsers seems to be standard fare in Japan and they seem to have even more positive communities than we do in NA/EU.
I keep putting toxicity in quotes because it seems like such a scary word for something that's in the scheme of things pretty minor. I get kicked from some pugs. I can't get into statics. Meh, it's a game? The game provides harassment procedures and also plenty of opportunity to start my own groups/networks if it's a real problem (PF, FC and LS, for example). But I have to be honest with myself, if it's happening over and over again is maybe the problem me? A (personal) parser might help me figure that out.
Although I wouldn't be against level 50 and 60 rotation demonstration/tutorials like you suggested. That also seems like a good idea. The only problem I see with that is that low dps could also be a fight-mechanic issue or a gear issue, and learning the rotation in a tutorial wouldn't help you improve if that's the source of your problem.
You also mention that you don't think a personal parser would help sufficiently. IIRC (though admittedly I did only skim the thread), this is because a number without a benchmark or comparison doesn't have a lot of utility. I agree, which is why I think linking it into the lodestone which gathers data from all players and then provides the critical statistics for comparison, mean and max, would raise the utility of the parser sufficiently. -
12-05-2015, 04:14 AMOdettDid you read Stupiduglytaru's post? Because I've also been met with instances like those, where the lowest parsing person will blame a wipe on someone else, and in their instance, thankfully, someone with a parser was there to prove that taru's DPS was the highest. More often than not, actually, the worst player in the group is often the one who has been the first to point fingers after a wipe, or blames their death on anything but themselves, be it lag, a tank, or more often, a healer. Adding a parser would help console players mess around with their rotations in fights to see what gets them the best DPS, help healers see how much they are overhealing, as well as see damage taken, would allow people to discuss why and see what was the problem in a failed DPS check when every member was alive instead of wondering what went wrong, and disprove low DPS group members who point the finger at other DPS jobs for their own lack of responsibility. None of those are "mays", those are all facts that you can reinforce with cold hard numbers. The downsides? Adding a parser "might" make already-toxic players more toxic, yes, but again, that's a hypothetical situation, and many of you are making this situation to be MUCH more prevalent and often than it is actually happening, and the only way to really find out is by implementing this tool to be used on consoles as well. Again, you can still report people for harassment, that won't change.Quote:
Originally Posted by DenebPunkin