Bard - they broke my job

It boosts all your damage oGCDs and GCDs. Infact it is a loss if you don't use WM for oGCDs from what I've been following.

Quote:

---

If Minuet's damage boost only really covers the loss of auto-attack, then are Bards supposed to 'minuet dance' in single target situations, turning it on just to use Emperyal and Iron Jaws (and to apply DoTs) and then turning it back off after? If they are, then isn't that kinda bad design, because it'd basically imply that Minuet doesn't really add anything beneficial and only exists to restrict gameplay.

---

Actually, it was meant to be danced in and out of, it's kind of the point. I don't think I would say bad design per say, because I personally enjoy it. I feel like it adds something that BRDs didn't have before. However, it is indeed weaker than I wished for it to be. I see it more as a means of reducing TP usage, by not needing to reapply DOTs so often. Also, there is no reason you shouldn't be in Minuet if you aren't moving, and dropping it as soon as you need to be moving, even if it only covers auto-attack damage, simply due to how Minuet save tons of TP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sareal

Actually, it was meant to be danced in and out of, it's kind of the point. I don't think I would say bad design per say, because I personally enjoy it. I feel like it adds something that BRDs didn't have before. However, it is indeed weaker than I wished for it to be. I see it more as a means of reducing TP usage, by not needing to reapply DOTs so often. Also, there is no reason you shouldn't be in Minuet if you aren't moving, and dropping it as soon as you need to be moving, even if it only covers auto-attack damage, simply due to how Minuet save tons of TP.

---

If you can dance WM on off then you have 0 extra sks - at ~600 sks empy recast is 14.1-2something seconds so it's up sooner than WM would be off CD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I'm actually sort of sitting here wondering if Minuet's damage boost actually makes your weaponskills do more damage than if you had Minuet turned off and thus had the ability to auto-attack, especially in a single target scenario. Because to me, it kind of feels like Minuet's damage boost only barely covers the loss of auto-attack damage. Although I don't know if Minuet actually boosts the damage of off-GCD skills like Misery's End, Sidewinder, and Flaming Arrow either.

If Minuet's damage boost only really covers the loss of auto-attack, then are Bards supposed to 'minuet dance' in single target situations, turning it on just to use Emperyal and Iron Jaws (and to apply DoTs) and then turning it back off after? If they are, then isn't that kinda bad design, because it'd basically imply that Minuet doesn't really add anything beneficial and only exists to restrict gameplay.

---

With auto-attack making up around 20% of DPS, it's definitely closer to a wash than a huge boost. You have to do a fair bit of stance-dancing to get the most benefit. Even then, it definitely feels like a struggle to do decent DPS compared to 2.0 bard.

I'm definitely not a fan of the design. I have no problem stance-dancing on a healer with cleric stance because, as a caster, it's a class that's never been designed to be mobile. But bard is completely mobile up until level 52. The change feels foreign, shoehorned and clunky to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ruskie

If you can dance WM on off then you have 0 extra sks - at ~600 sks empy recast is 14.1-2something seconds so it's up sooner than WM would be off CD.

---

There is a difference between using and dropping it as soon as it is off cooldown or as soon as you used empyreal, and dancing it as it was intended. The point being, is that Minuet should always be up whenever you are standing still, as even if Minuet only compensates for auto-attack, it is technically not a DPS loss unless you move, in which case, you simply drop it (no cast or cooldown are triggered from dropping it) to move, keep dpsing, and then when you find yourself safe to stand still again, resume Minuet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sareal

There is a difference between using and dropping it as soon as it is off cooldown or as soon as you used empyreal, and dancing it as it was intended. The point being, is that Minuet should always be up whenever you are standing still, as even if Minuet only compensates for auto-attack, it is technically not a DPS loss unless you move, in which case, you simply drop it (no cast or cooldown are triggered from dropping it) to move, keep dpsing, and then when you find yourself safe to stand still again, resume Minuet.

---

Or you know you stutter step. Plenty of time to move after casts or you get a straighter shot proc and you can move anywhere you want in those 2.5s of gcd. But yeah I can understand people trying to stance dance and if it works out for then great!

If it was meant to be stance danced, it would not had that 3 second cast time at 3.0........silly people. always overthinking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sareal

Actually, it was meant to be danced in and out of, it's kind of the point. I don't think I would say bad design per say, because I personally enjoy it.

---

I don't think something with a turret-concept is supposed to be stance danced to maximize damage. Mobility maybe, but not damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sareal

Minuet save tons of TP.

---

I still fail to see how it saves tons of TP. You save 40 tp every 18 seconds (60 tp for IJ + 60 tp for HS\SS vs 80+80 tp if use VB+WB. Don't compare 1 gcd vs 2 gcds and tell that it is 60 tp vs 160 - it is just wrong), but you spend extra 60 tp every 15 seconds using empyreal arrow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sareal

.

---

You're playing a job with a common proc that hits for as hard as it's biggest GCD skill save for dots. Having WM off as often as you're implying is murder on your DPS.

Throw that on top of having CDs exclusive to minuet and a few other things, and you get a big fat no. There's been all sorts of math done for BRD, and the closest thing supporting what you're saying, is the idea of dropping WM very briefly which requires knowing your autoattack timer, and that doesn't imply you'll be swapping stances whenever possible, because there are a lot of other conditions that need to be met. If someone was as godly as you'd need to be to push BRD to the fullest with that optimization we'd still be talking a maybe 2% increase in DPS and that feels generous.
Almost all movement in endgame is about as long as a GCD or two, and depending on how your off-GCD is looking, feint is usually better. The worst case of movement you can really name across a million fights is bluefire in T12, which was maybe 3-4 GCDs and fairly spaced out, and even then, most good groups had healers handling that mechanic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aabe

Almost all movement in endgame is about as long as a GCD or two, and depending on how your off-GCD is looking, feint is usually better. The worst case of movement you can really name across a million fights is bluefire in T12, which was maybe 3-4 GCDs and fairly spaced out, and even then, most good groups had healers handling that mechanic.

---

Actually if you're handling bluefire, it gimps your dps so hard you might as well not be dpsing at all. A good example I could come up with is Ravana during beetle phase and you're kiting the orbs...but during that he has a damage reduction buff. Everything else is more or less on point though, it almost gets to the point that it's an extremely small dps gain for BRD (talking single digits here) to be able to squeeze in the auto attacks, assuming there wasn't a BL reset, otherwise its a loss.

This is notable Necro, but WE WON!!!! Glory days are coming back!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kalasnikov

This is notable Necro, but WE WON!!!! Glory days are coming back!!!

---

What do you mean glory days? Right now bard is the best it's ever been if you're actually good at the job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atmora

What do you mean glory days? Right now bard is the best it's ever been if you're actually good at the job.

---

Actually Bard was at its best at the release of The Coil of Bahamut where groups would take multiple Bards for their absurdly high damage at the time.

WE WON!!! THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR VOICING YOUR CONCERNS AND SUPPORT!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greedalox

Actually Bard was at its best at the release of The Coil of Bahamut where groups would take multiple Bards for their absurdly high damage at the time.

---

I don't know if you know this, but BRD is actually the highest dps in an optimal comp. In a vacuum other jobs do more, but right now bards top parses in speed clears.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atmora

I don't know if you know this, but BRD is actually the highest dps in an optimal comp. In a vacuum other jobs do more, but right now bards top parses in speed clears.

---

But do they do top damage outside of the vacuum now with multiple bards? Cause that's what they were doing in early Coil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greedalox

But do they do top damage outside of the vacuum now with multiple bards? Cause that's what they were doing in early Coil.

---

That's like saying monk was broken because it topped damage in 3.4 before anyone leveled ninja. You take a Bard AND a MCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kalasnikov

This is notable Necro, but WE WON!!!! Glory days are coming back!!!

---

I had lost all hope of the cast times ever being removed. I am overjoyed right now. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atmora

That's like saying monk was broken because it topped damage in 3.4 before anyone leveled ninja. You take a Bard AND a MCH.

---

That's not saying that at all. The damage bard did in early coil warranted bringing MULTIPLE bards instead of the utility combinations of different classes. This situation is more akin to what you're describing as todays Bards.

I'm just saying that a time where a party could want 3-4 bards instead of todays 1 makes it a clear winner of the apex of Bards existence in terms of DPS contribution (Especially when we evaluate Raid Contribution too)

For the first time since Wanderer's Minuet was first announced...I feel...excited to play bard again. As if...a weight has been lifted from my very soul. I dragged my feet throughout Heavensward because I simply couldn't find a class I wanted to play. Between the ability bloat on melee, the stress of playing a healer/tank, and the fact that I didn't want to deal with a cast timer from the very beginning; left me with two choices, mch and bard. I did not like the rng based dps of mch or the terrible pet management system of the turret, so I was forced to suffer with Bowmage.

Now...it's done...it's finally over...I have my job back. Thank you, Yoshi-P. Thank you for finally listening to us and undoing this horrible mistake.