Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

Damage meters would show how terrible of a mage I really am...

The watchers of the Lunarians can't have that reputation... :p

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Originally Posted by Videra

DPS meters are simply a part of MMO gameplay and culture.

They are an abject necessity for optimal play in any regard, be it on a healer, a tank, or most of all - a damage dealer. The problem arises in that the games themselves do not teach optimal play, and rather leave the community to fend for itself. There are people who refuse to use the tools they can access, and as such - will never improve. This can come in the form of another player running ACT, and written works such as the guides on The Balance. FFXIV is not a difficult game to play almost correctly, with little optimizations proving more challenging class pending. There are also people who don't know these tools (ACT, External guides) exist until they're introduced to the former via a player shitting on them for their numbers instead of discussing the nature of the problem and trying to help. This -generally- leads to the "You don't pay my sub" mentality.

In short, parsers only state facts - and facts are never toxic. People are.

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Basically...

The one way they MAY (because even then it's not guaranteed) change course is if people make more of a concentrated effort to show a more positive culture using parsers. The discussion about the fact it's "only a tool" has been done to death. The problem is that people shirk any responsibility or even ARGUE for the negative ways of using parsers which is "well they're bad and should be shamed" and is done so much it pretty much waylays any pathway for good detailed ways it has helped others - not just talking about a Static where there is the "Gentleman's agreement", but rather a random player encounter.


If we saw ...say more posts like below:

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Just dropping in to point out something I don't often see pointed out:

Thanks to parsing, a rando DPS will occasionally get my commendation instead of the usual tank/healer, because I can see they are doing well.

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Instead of the usual that happens in threads like these. More stories on how someone genuinely helped players without "rough love" and don't encourage behavior that sends the the positive aspects to be overshadowed, people generally become more receptive. As it stands now I don't think many have really changed their positions due to the fact the same behavior keeps happening over and over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Videra

DPS meters are simply a part of MMO gameplay and culture.

They are an abject necessity for optimal play in any regard, be it on a healer, a tank, or most of all - a damage dealer. The problem arises in that the games themselves do not teach optimal play, and rather leave the community to fend for itself. There are people who refuse to use the tools they can access, and as such - will never improve. This can come in the form of another player running ACT, and written works such as the guides on The Balance. FFXIV is not a difficult game to play almost correctly, with little optimizations proving more challenging class pending. There are also people who don't know these tools (ACT, External guides) exist until they're introduced to the former via a player shitting on them for their numbers instead of discussing the nature of the problem and trying to help. This -generally- leads to the "You don't pay my sub" mentality.

In short, parsers only state facts - and facts are never toxic. People are.

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The oddity of MMOs generally speaking is that the current model relies on damage dealt as the means for progress, which is why Parsers are almost a must have. A potential different direction they could take with bosses is changing the victory conditions. Damage is, most likely, gonna be necessary for MMOs, but the necessity of damage checks that require a high level of class competence doesnt have to be the case.

As an example, you could have a 'survival' boss, where the goal is to outlast the boss. DPS checks would still likely be a part of it, but could be softer DPS checks that you must meet while sustaining heavy damage or managing other mechanics. For example, constant soft raid busters are going out to the point where healers must be actively healing and will not be able to effectively DPS, while adds or other mechanics occupy both tanks, leaving DPS to handle some soft DPS check while avoiding small ground AoEs themselves. Clear all 3 parts of it, and the fight proceeds to the next phase. Maximum DPS wouldnt be necessary as you cant 'burn the boss down' any faster, but rather the damage dealt is meant to ensure that you can even proceed to the next check point.

Point is shifting away from damage models give you teh victory might be a direction. It just requires a lot more effort from the devs in design. But this is only a thought.

Beyond that, yeah, I would think that yes the game should do a lot more to teach players how to play properly. I forget if it was this thread or another, but I do think that plateauing the difficulty curve like they currently do once you hit max level is detrimental to the casual base and that they should be pushing players a little bit to improve. Where you can actually fail duties and boss fights unless you learn mechanics and proper class play. Heck maybe a rathalos style set up might work best. Give everyone a 45 Minute timer to beat the dungeon, but also include that you cant hve more than ...5 deaths lets say, or you fail the dungeon. A life system might force players to actually be a lot mroe aware of things. Also soft enrages on bosses that require ok dps to beat them would be ideal. Doubt any of this would happen though. Oh well.

There is no "positive" use of parser/recount/damage meter because we are all hypocrites (yes, including me)
Parser, instead of a tool used for feedback, it becomes a weapon.
Since TBC to BFA in WoW, not even once where parser is being used for teaching purpose.
It is a tool for guild officers to weed out the less performers.
You are being delusional if you are saying otherwise.
I am in my WoW guild's officer chat
The individual who claiming "meter doesn't matter" in the gchat/vent/discord is the same person who is complaining about other's healing/dps is up to par.
YoshipP is/was a WoW players and of course he has witnessed these hypocrites.
People will not use parser as tool for improvement and merely use it as a tool for elimination
If FF14 already made their stance on parser, please don't try to sugarcoating to make parser looks so positive when it is actually not in reality
Yes, you can still use parser; but just be reminded that you are also vulnerable to violate TOS for account penalty.
There is no point to argue further.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

There is no "positive" use of parser/recount/damage meter because we are all hypocrites (yes, including me)
Parser, instead of a tool used for feedback, it becomes a weapon.
Since TBC to BFA in WoW, not even once where parser is being used for teaching purpose.
It is a tool for guild officers to weed out the less performers.
You are being delusional if you are saying otherwise.
I am in my WoW guild's officer chat
The individual who claiming "meter doesn't matter" in the gchat/vent/discord is the same person who is complaining about other's healing/dps is up to par.
YoshipP is/was a WoW players and of course he has witnessed these hypocrites.
People will not use parser as tool for improvement and merely use it as a tool for elimination
If FF14 already made their stance on parser, please don't try to sugarcoating to make parser looks so positive when it is actually not in reality
Yes, you can still use parser; but just be reminded that you are also vulnerable to violate TOS for account penalty.
There is no point to argue further.

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Lot of people gonna strongly disagree with you. We aren't playing WoW and this isn't a WoW community, it's a FF14 community which has a pretty good reputation for being nicer, more welcoming, and helpful. No one is going argue that there aren't people who use parsers is negative ways but there most certainly is people who use parsers in a positive way to to see where they can improve themselves or help others improve. Parsing itself is neither positive or negative, it's just a tool, just like a hammer. You can improve stuff with it or you can bash people over the head with it.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

Lot of people gonna strongly disagree with you. We aren't playing WoW and this isn't a WoW community, it's a FF14 community which has a pretty good reputation for being nicer, more welcoming, and helpful. No one is going argue that there aren't people who use parsers is negative ways but there most certainly is people who use parsers in a positive way to to see where they can improve themselves or help others improve. Parsing itself is neither positive or negative, it's just a tool, just like a hammer. You can improve stuff with it or you can bash people over the head with it.

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Didn't NRA used the same excuse for the gun legislation?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

There is no "positive" use of parser/recount/damage meter because we are all hypocrites (yes, including me)
Parser, instead of a tool used for feedback, it becomes a weapon.
Since TBC to BFA in WoW, not even once where parser is being used for teaching purpose.
It is a tool for guild officers to weed out the less performers.
You are being delusional if you are saying otherwise.
I am in my WoW guild's officer chat
The individual who claiming "meter doesn't matter" in the gchat/vent/discord is the same person who is complaining about other's healing/dps is up to par.
YoshipP is/was a WoW players and of course he has witnessed these hypocrites.
People will not use parser as tool for improvement and merely use it as a tool for elimination
If FF14 already made their stance on parser, please don't try to sugarcoating to make parser looks so positive when it is actually not in reality
Yes, you can still use parser; but just be reminded that you are also vulnerable to violate TOS for account penalty.
There is no point to argue further.

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As a person who has lead several raid groups back in Wrath of the Lich King I have on multiple occasions taught people to be better with Recount, as of BFA I taught several range dps how to be better with Details and Skada Damamge meters.

You were in a guild who most likely only cared for high end play and that was it, user experience may vary.

But over all in WoW, espcially back then, there were a massive abundance of guilds willing to help and teach.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

Lot of people gonna strongly disagree with you. We aren't playing WoW and this isn't a WoW community, it's a FF14 community which has a pretty good reputation for being nicer, more welcoming, and helpful.

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Yeah, that's what this community likes to tell itself.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/wWue0rCDOphOE/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yeah, that's what this community likes to tell itself.

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And yet we keep getting WoW refugees who keep complimenting FF14 saying "Wow, I came over from WoW and people are so much nicer here!" Maybe you need to stop hanging out with the same few bad apples?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Didn't NRA used the same excuse for the gun legislation?

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That they did, and they are right, just like a hammer, a rifle is a tool, an inanimate object. It does not have a will of its own. It's not going suddenly spring to life and start firing. There needs to be a human holding it and using it. But this forum isn't the place to discuss gun rights and issues if thats where you were going with your comment.