SAM out classing all other DPS

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

Well said GunZ. Basically SAM has it all. ALL OF IT. Highest dps, long lasting buff/dot, no expiring resource, down time mitigator, ramp up speed up moves (PB: 180s, Nastrond: 120ish sec, Meikyo: 80s), 1 additional self heal over nin and goon, not a worry in mind about mechanics... lets make this whole thing simpler and delete all other classes.

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Neh. MNK's got SAM beat in every area but raw personal DPS, which isn't far behind. Quality of life and punishment during mechanics can leave a bit to be desired compared to SAM, however. Though I still believe SAM has it's own troubles in those regards.

Actually, MNK is riding the line of being stupid good. It ain't there yet, but if it was neck and neck with SAM DPS, it sure would be. There's almost nothing MNK doesn't have at this point.

@GunZLegend: The reason the DoT is so long is because the way our rotation works, we can't just reapply it with a combo like other classes. It isn't part ofa normal attqck rotation. We need to build up a Sen first and THEN use it. It takes about 22 seconds to go through a full rotation for a Midare and about another 9 seconds to reapply Higanbana. If the buff was the same duration as every other class, we'd literally have to reapply it every other rotation and it would be falling off any time mechanics made us move.

Now, does it need to be a full minute? I don't know. But it's much harder to reapply, taking at the shortest 2 GCDs plus a cast time or 3 GCDs and a cast time if you don't have Jinpu going.

Same thing with our buffs. They last a long time because if they didn't, they would constantly fall off during our rotation, which is a lot less flexible due to the way Sen is generated. Heck, they fall off quite a bit now if mechanics stop us from attacking with a 30 second duration and a 22 second rotation before we can reapply, unless we have Hagakure up to clear our Sen and avoid overlap. We can't just look at our buff time and go "well, better use an Arnor Crush combo".

Not saying SAM is super difficult and doesn't have some advantages, but for buffs and the DoT, there is a reason for them being the way they are.

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Originally Posted by GunZLegend

You can say this about literally any class in the game....

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Your take on the other jobs is correct for the most part but your oversimplification of Sam without really diving into why things are the way they are makes some of the points about Sam in comparison appear lacking.

With the balance changes that's coming in the new patch, all Samurai mains make sure to under perform, so we can get buff!

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

ramp up speed up moves.

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Question! How is Meikyo a ramp speed up when it's clearly a dps burst? If you use it to apply your buffs you're bad.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Yeah, I was wondering that myself. It's basically our Blood for Blood, only to be used when buffs are already up to get out Midare quickly.

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Many times have I asked, and never have I been answered.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Question! How is Meikyo a ramp speed up when it's clearly a dps burst? If you use it to apply your buffs you're bad.

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Yeah, I was wondering that myself. It's basically our Blood for Blood, only to be used when buffs are already up to get out Midare quickly.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Considering the dps difference between a good SAM and a bad one is upwards of 1700-2000, i'd say its not that easy.

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I can see that with almost any class, such a gab..., with blm even bigger

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Neh. MNK's got SAM beat in every area but raw personal DPS, which isn't far behind. Quality of life and punishment during mechanics can leave a bit to be desired compared to SAM, however. Though I still believe SAM has it's own troubles in those regards.

Actually, MNK is riding the line of being stupid good. It ain't there yet, but if it was neck and neck with SAM DPS, it sure would be. There's almost nothing MNK doesn't have at this point.

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Certain tools such as Riddle of Earth need you to know when to specifically utilize them to take advantage of the refresh on GL at full, and with how your chakra gain work, you are also very reliant on crits landing. People are also on the fence still when it comes to Tornado Kick. If a class has as much to worry about as MNK when it comes to maintenance, I would expect top damage, but they're second to SAM who has way less on their plate.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

@GunZLegend: The reason the DoT is so long is because the way our rotation works, we can't just reapply it with a combo like other classes. It isn't part ofa normal attqck rotation. We need to build up a Sen first and THEN use it. It takes about 22 seconds to go through a full rotation for a Midare and about another 9 seconds to reapply Higanbana. If the buff was the same duration as every other class, we'd literally have to reapply it every other rotation and it would be falling off any time mechanics made us move.

Now, does it need to be a full minute? I don't know. But it's much harder to reapply, taking at the shortest 2 GCDs plus a cast time or 3 GCDs and a cast time if you don't have Jinpu going.

Same thing with our buffs. They last a long time because if they didn't, they would constantly fall off during our rotation, which is a lot less flexible due to the way Sen is generated. Heck, they fall off quite a bit now if mechanics stop us from attacking with a 30 second duration and a 22 second rotation before we can reapply, unless we have Hagakure up to clear our Sen and avoid overlap. We can't just look at our buff time and go "well, better use an Arnor Crush combo".

Not saying SAM is super difficult and doesn't have some advantages, but for buffs and the DoT, there is a reason for them being the way they are.

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Using the arguement "But it's only this long because it's how SAM is functional" is moot. I'm sorry but it is pretty irritating seeing that used. No one is arguing against it working that way. The fact it DOES work the way it does is why it is so easy and good for it. And for the record, building sen and maintaining buffs being so linear is again why SAM is so easy, and Hagakure has been pointed out to not change your DPS significantly to the point where Hagakure is in fact an option select to be held onto whenever it is needed, or used at your leisure depending on your approach. With what I've posted in here before this, yes, it is in fact very easy and more rewarding than other melee.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Your take on the other jobs is correct for the most part but your oversimplification of Sam without really diving into why things are the way they are makes some of the points about Sam in comparison appear lacking.

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I believe my little "summary" still holds very much the truth, and if that doesn't hold you specifically, then nothing will considering how I've touched a good few of specific things and instances already on this with you. This is again if you take all the classes to go through as much of the same thing as possible.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

I can see that with almost any class, such a gab..., with blm even bigger

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and depends on if the Sam is getting all the party buffs, hence depending on the party comp too.... and many new ffxiv players are jumping to samurai

rdm and Sam are easy for end raids, you just get the hang of rdm faster..

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Originally Posted by GunZLegend

I believe my little "summary" still holds very much the truth, and if that doesn't hold you specifically, then nothing will considering how I've touched a good few of specific things and instances already on this with you. This is again if you take all the classes to go through as much of the same thing as possible.

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Again, your over simplification and now slight over exaggeration of Mnks "hard times" is what I have issues accepting.

No matter how hard people try, when you look at the core mechanics of the jobs, mnk is no harder than the next job. Rather easy in fact, comparatively speaking Drg should have been a higher dps job if we followed the "difficulty lkgic".

Maintaining GL isn't hard, it never was unless mechanics dictated otherwise, The core of mnk however is not more difficult , the class is however more mechanically fustrating.