Get rid of SAM Limit break gimmick already (FL)

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Might as well stop with the advice my friend. They won't listen

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No one is listening that includes me ,you and the dev. I do know how to counter a sam, what I was saying this whole time is that trying to counter a Sam lb mechanic is not fun. We were talking about different things. It's like talking to a broken telephone

Like I said , Have you ever play any action game that keeps the player second guessing on hitting the enemies. Imagine you are playing devil may cry or nier autotma and there is this one enemy type keep repeatedly showing up that can oneshot you if you hit em, that won't be fun right?

Like I can mark that one Sam, and try to pay attention to counter their lb, getting my shield ready and bait them, waiting for them to be done with their chiten, stun them then may or may not get oneshot if they purify. However, doing so is so annoying and anti-fun to the point that sometimes I stop caring and just let them kill me.

I'm always careful. Anyone who knows how I play realize that when I die, it's because I automatically died.

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Originally Posted by NevaehQuest

No one is listening that includes me ,you and the dev. I do know how to counter a sam, what I was saying this whole time is that trying to counter a Sam lb mechanic is not fun. We were talking about different things. It's like talking to a broken telephone

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Something not being fun is subjective.

What is objective is that there is counterplay to it.

The issue is you either don't want to utilize it, aren't good at it (which means you have something you can focus on when you're in matches), or don't care (probably not true since you're in here posting about it.)

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Like I said , Have you ever play any action game that keeps the player second guessing on hitting the enemies. Imagine you are playing devil may cry or nier autotma and there is this one enemy type keep repeatedly showing up that can oneshot you if you hit em, that won't be fun right?

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Yes, I've played FromSoftware Games and enjoy them.

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Like I can mark that one Sam, and try to pay attention to counter their lb, getting my shield ready and bait them, waiting for them to be done with their chiten, stun them then may or may not get oneshot if they purify. However, doing so is so annoying and anti-fun to the point that sometimes I stop caring and just let them kill me.

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It's no different than walking away from a Comet AE indicator, or a DRK diving you.

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Originally Posted by Trevski

Something not being fun is subjective.

What is objective is that there is counterplay to it.

The issue is you either don't want to utilize it, aren't good at it (which means you have something you can focus on when you're in matches), or don't care (probably not true since you're in here posting about it.)



Yes, I've played FromSoftware Games and enjoy them.



It's no different than walking away from a Comet AE indicator, or a DRK diving you.

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Every opinion is subjective.

What is objective is there is a way.

If you are trying to turn this into philosophical debate. I am out. Please no Jordan.b.peterson here.

FromSoftware doesn't put one enemy that can parry you in a large group of enemies like 24 targets and on top of that getting parry doesn't oneshot you, that is why they are good game dev.

And no sam lb mechanic is different from comet AE or Drk diving me, non of the things you mentioned punish the player as hard as sam lb.

Always the same accusation that others must be incompetent because the counters are soooo reasonable, namely: People just need to keep shields up all the time, keep their HP at 100% all the time, make sure to keep track of every SAM and their barely noticeable status all the time, not cast AoE if they suspect there's a SAM somewhere in the cluster of opponents. If they don't then they simply auto-die, totally reasonable.

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Originally Posted by NevaehQuest

Every opinion is subjective.

What is objective is there is a way.

If you are trying to turn this into philosophical debate. I am out. Please no Jordan.b.peterson here.

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...what are you talking about? Jordan Peterson?

I'm saying that something is 'fun' or 'unfun' doesn't really matter when looking at the issues with SAM LB. My point is that there is counterplay, you can't argue that there isn't.

Saying something is 'unfun' shouldn't be the sole motivating factor for 'getting rid' of something. It should absolutely be considered, but so should a lot of other things.

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FromSoftware doesn't put one enemy that can parry you in a large group of enemies like 24 targets and on top of that getting parry doesn't oneshot you, that is why they are good game dev.

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You were talking about a single player game with a single mob popping up. Now you're changing the parameters of your example, so, bullet hell shooters?

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And no sam lb mechanic is different from comet AE or Drk diving me, non of the things you mentioned punish the player as hard as sam lb.

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I'm not talking about results (although I'd argue getting caught by a DRK does mean you die) but that they function the same -- you get a visual indicator (AE marker, DRK barrelling down on you, Chiten debuff) and you react accordingly.

I will say that having a better visual indicator, similar to BLM/GNB reflect shields, BRD LB aura or PLD LB bubble would be a good solve, but a lot of this reads as 'I should be allowed to push my buttons without any sort of risk or tradeoff to my doing so' and I think that is silly.

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Originally Posted by EmilySummerstar

Always the same accusation that others must be incompetent because the counters are soooo reasonable, namely: People just need to keep shields up all the time, keep their HP at 100% all the time, make sure to keep track of every SAM and their barely noticeable status all the time, not cast AoE if they suspect there's a SAM somewhere in the cluster of opponents. If they don't then they simply auto-die, totally reasonable.

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This is a gross over exaggeration. The only real thing you need to be cognizant of is whether or not you get the Chiten debuff. You get the debuff? Just run away. It's not foolproof (nothing in PVP is going to be), but you can avoid it simply by being aware of that debuff.

No need to be 100% HP or playing perfectly or anything like that.

That is literally all you have to do. If you want to be greedy or try for more skillful attempts at dealing with a SAM, there are tools available to do so, but for basic survival, getting away from the SAM and understanding how the abilities work (SAM LB is boosted by anyone who got the Chiten debuff, it is a frontal conal ability) can help keep you alive.

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Originally Posted by Trevski

...what are you talking about? Jordan Peterson?

I'm saying that something is 'fun' or 'unfun' doesn't really matter when looking at the issues with SAM LB. My point is that there is counterplay, you can't argue that there isn't.

Saying something is 'unfun' shouldn't be the sole motivating factor for 'getting rid' of something. It should absolutely be considered, but so should a lot of other things.



You were talking about a single player game with a single mob popping up. Now you're changing the parameters of your example, so, bullet hell shooters?



They function the same -- you get a visual indicator (AE marker, DRK barrelling down on you, Chiten debuff) and you react accordingly.

I will say that having a visual indicator, similar to BLM/GNB reflect shields, BRD LB aura or PLD LB bubble would be useful, but a lot of this reads as 'I should be allowed to push my buttons without any sort of risk or tradeoff to my doing so' and I think that is silly.

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Let me make it clear. You logic is that if a gameplay mechanic has a solution or counter to it, then it is acceptable/fun/fair. It is the equivalent to, saying Lord of the rings gollum is a good game because people can beat it and get the achievement. 'If you can beat a game, then it is a good game.' 'If you can counter a mechanic, then it is a good mechanic'

And you were the one who was bringing up fromsoftware first....I was just saying it is not a good comparison to Sam's lb. If you want a good comparison, well to tell you the truth I've never seen any onlinegame has this 'you hit me you die instantly' mechanic. So I cannot even compare it to anything. If you tell any game dev to put this into their game, they will most likely said 'but that sounds kinda bs tho.'

A mechanic having a visual indicator doesn't make it a fair/good mechanic. What if we give blm an lb to just dose 70000 damage to everyone within a 60Y range in 3 sec but giving them an visual indicator. That won't be fair right? 'oh it have a visual indicator , just look out bro' It is not a good argument. Just cause they all have visual indicator doesn't make them a good comparison.

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Originally Posted by NevaehQuest

Let me make it clear. You logic is that if a gameplay mechanic has a solution or counter to it, then it is acceptable/fun/fair. It is the equivalent to, saying Lord of the rings gollum is a good game because people can beat it and get the achievement. 'If you can beat a game, then it is a good game.' 'If you can counter a mechanic, then it is a good mechanic'

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That's not what I'm saying. I even stated that there might need to be more of a visual indicator as a potential 'solve.'

I also stated that simply looking at one person's subjective feelings (it is 'unfun') shouldn't be the sole deciding factor, but that it is something that should be considered when looking at changes.

I feel you're misrepresenting a lot of what I'm saying with some insane rhetoric (I still don't understand why you're bringing up Jordan Peterson beyond trying to smear me.)

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well to tell you the truth I've never seen any onlinegame has this 'you hit me you die instantly' mechanic.

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Heroes of the Storm Genji's Reflect ability can straight up delete characters who attack them.

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So I cannot even compare it to anything. If you tell any game dev to put this into their game, they will most likely said 'but that sounds kinda bs tho.'

A mechanic having a visual indicator doesn't make it a fair/good mechanic. What if we give blm an lb to just dose 70000 damage to everyone within a 60Y range in 3 sec but giving them an visual indicator. That won't be fair right? 'oh it have a visual indicator , just look out bro' It is not a good argument. Just cause they all have visual indicator doesn't make them a good comparison.

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I think you need to stop and really think about what you are saying. You're using incredibly sensationalistic language that isn't really accurate to what people are saying to you. Your BLM example is ridiculous and over the top and ignores the second half of what I'm saying: there is a visual indicator that you can react to.

It is becoming increasingly apparent as to why you struggle so much with SAM LB and prefer to complain for literal months on here (I just realized I responded to you in this very thread three months ago.)

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Originally Posted by Trevski

That's not what I'm saying. I even stated that there might need to be more of a visual indicator as a potential 'solve.'

I also stated that simply looking at one person's subjective feelings (it is 'unfun') shouldn't be the sole deciding factor, but that it is something that should be considered when looking at changes.

I feel you're misrepresenting a lot of what I'm saying with some insane rhetoric (I still don't understand why you're bringing up Jordan Peterson beyond trying to smear me.)



Heroes of the Storm Genji's Reflect ability can straight up delete characters who attack them.



I think you need to stop and really think about what you are saying. You're using incredibly sensationalistic language that isn't really accurate to what people are saying to you. Your BLM example is ridiculous and over the top and ignores the second half of what I'm saying: there is a visual indicator that you can react to.

It is becoming increasingly apparent as to why you struggle so much with SAM LB and prefer to complain for literal months on here (I just realized I responded to you in this very thread three months ago.)

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I think we are not even talking about the same thing anymore. We are just going in circle. I am not going into attack the person and talking about how they use their language, or they have other motives.

When we start using words like subjective and objective on a topic, it is very similar to saying, that is just ones opinions and means little because of the unchangeable objective physical realities and the existing reactions and solutions to it. And it introduce the person into a jordan b peterson style of philosophical debate, and I just don't want to go there. no I am not trying to smear you, I think he is really good at what hes doing. I am just not ready for that kind of debate...

But I am happy you are responding to my comment. It keeps the things going.
My point at the end of the day is that the 'hit me and you die' mechanic in any game will never be fun. I don't think Sam is op, I just think the sam's lb is not fun to play against, and if you think it is fun, that is ok. Like you said it is subjective.

However, you and I both know, you CANNOT really react to a Sam chiten visual indication, a good sam will time your attack to use chiten in cc, they will in fact use chiten the moment they saw you start your attack animation. Some aoe and lb has a very long animation and damage delay and they can use that to kill you and there is nothing you can do about it. And a sam in fl with a pocket healer will know when to time the chiten to kill a bunch of players(a lot of new players as well) in one go.
The moment you saw the so call 'indicator' you are already dead. You cannot counter something that is spontaneous, its just one and zero. You touch the chiten without shield and 100%hp you die, if you didn't you live.
Mechanic like Sam'lb has only two outcomes. If a drk pull you, or aoe indication on top of you, any other things hit you in the game, you will be have at least more than one solution to it(guard, purify, other pvp actions like sprint). But for sam'lb is just mostly one and zero. All happens in a split second.