*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

I thought the whole point of the expansion is to figure out how to not give into despair even when horrible things happen? The ancients lost almost everyone they cared about and were expected to still move forward and not give into despair. So why is the expectation different for us in this case? Why shouldn't we also be expected to move forward regardless of losing the others if it came down to it? With our plot armor I'm sure they could've figured out a different way to make it through Ultima Thule.

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But the WoL has to move forward throught their despair. Unlike us who knows that they wont just kill all the scions off, the characters in the story dont know that. Which is imo shown when all the answers to the Twins are about them not going through with it. For the WoL this was probably their highest moment of despair they ever felt. No matter what we feel about the characters, the WoL that the devs wrote cares about them. The WoL does not know that they will be back at the end. They still go on, just as they did with every person they lost. They may be sad, they may remember them but they always go on.

And at the end their iron will to continue summoned Emet and Hythlo. And by understanding Meteion they summoned the Flowers and thus Hope.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Character deaths like that, I can appreciate because the way other characters react leads to compelling stories. I do not want or need character death for the sake of demonstrating how high the stakes are.

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I find it a bit sad that seemingly for so many only a main character dead means much. Yes we did not lose any of the main cast but we still lost others. After Ahewann's death I was on the edge of my seat when we had to help Matsya. Especially since they had no problem with turning a kid into a beast. I cried when he tried to to give himself courage but failed to do that. And I was shaking a bit after he finally got rescued.

And honestly I found our final days to be worse. We were only at the first stages but we already learned that people bascially stopped to exist once they turned. That for me is somehow the worst. To never be reborn again. Never the chance at another life. While you devor and kill those that you hold dear. For me at least that were pretty high stakes.

That one mob - not even a miniboss- in Vanaspati where the mother Arkasadora transforms into a blasphemy and her children begging for her and get also transformed? It's a minor thing, none of the characters are named, and yet every single run of that dungeon it is an emotional gut punch on the same scale as the Vault aftermath. I hate it, but in a way the recognizes that yep the writers and scenario designers got to me.

Even if our Final Days wasn't quite as dire as the original, it still placed us into a very uncomfortable situation where we're struggling to just save people at all with how widespread the carnage was and there was only so much that could be done to keep the civilians from turning.

It's been left deliberately vague about how Corvos fared compared to Thavnair, so I'm hoping it gets addressed as post-patch content.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

That one mob - not even a miniboss- in Vanaspati where the mother Arkasadora transforms into a blasphemy and her children begging for her and get also transformed? It's a minor thing, none of the characters are named, and yet every single run of that dungeon it is an emotional gut punch on the same scale as the Vault aftermath. I hate it, but in a way the recognizes that yep the writers and scenario designers got to me.

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I like how even the enemy design gets into the mix on this one; the second boss uses an elephant's face as its back. That's a design that only appears in Thavnair, so it stares you in the face with the horror that's going on right in front of you, it's really smart.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

no. they couldnt have succeeded because races with strong aether wouldn't have been able to interact with dynamos. Which is one of the reasons why venat did what she did.

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They absolutely could have. There is nothing to even suggest that dynamis is required. We only ended up using dynamis in one very specific way and entirely by accident. They never showed why we couldn't defeat her as aetherial beings. Dynamis isn't used in our fight against the Endsinger either. In fact we know that aether actively opposes and cancels out dynamis. Hence why Zodirak is the only thing stopping her from killing us before. That whole thing about dynamis being necessary for humanity to survive is complete and total bullshit.

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Originally Posted by SquigglesMajor

They absolutely could have. There is nothing to even suggest that dynamis is required. We only ended up using dynamis in one very specific way and entirely by accident. They never showed why we couldn't defeat her as aetherial beings. Dynamis isn't used in our fight against the Endsinger either. In fact we know that aether actively opposes and cancels out dynamis. Hence why Zodirak is the only thing stopping her from killing us before. That whole thing about dynamis being necessary for humanity to survive is complete and total bullshit.

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1) the game itself stated that due to their aether being so dense the ancients couldnt Interact with ultima thul.
2) 75% of all remaining ancients being sacrificed resulted in an aether shield and they were on the brink of total collapse afterwards.
3)dynamis can cancel out aether just as aether can cancel out dynamis.
4)we only survived endsinger because of a dynamis shield.

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That whole thing about dynamis being necessary for humanity to survive is complete and total bullshit.

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this is 100% ignoring the story.

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Originally Posted by SquigglesMajor

They absolutely could have. There is nothing to even suggest that dynamis is required. We only ended up using dynamis in one very specific way and entirely by accident. They never showed why we couldn't defeat her as aetherial beings. Dynamis isn't used in our fight against the Endsinger either. In fact we know that aether actively opposes and cancels out dynamis. Hence why Zodirak is the only thing stopping her from killing us before. That whole thing about dynamis being necessary for humanity to survive is complete and total bullshit.

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Before Zodiark, the Ancients were basically defenseless against the End of Days specifically because of an inability to interact with dynamis. Because they couldn't turn that energy in their favor, it meant that everything they created were sitting ducks prime for dynamis corruption--and the Ancients do a lot of creating. So even with the Ancients not knowing what would await them if they pursued Meteion, it was a fair assumption that just turning up as Ancients would go poorly.

Of course, when we went to Ultima Thule, we learned that assumption was very much correct, because it turns out the only means of survival and traversal was through dynamis manipulation. First Thancred making the space actually baseline habitable, and then by interacting with Ultima Thule's inhabitants to counteract their corrupt dynamis preventing further traversal. Of course, it's not just dynamis manipulation that was needed, but also personal experience to speak from, but the former was just as required as the latter.

Dynamis was literally mandatory for humanity to fight Meteion and truly stop the End of Days rather than just blocking it. The question of whether fighting Meteion at all was necessary after Zodiark got put up is still an open one, but a certain Fancy Daniel forced the issue there.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Before Zodiark, the Ancients were basically defenseless against the End of Days specifically because of an inability to interact with dynamis. Because they couldn't turn that energy in their favor, it meant that everything they created were sitting ducks prime for dynamis corruption--and the Ancients do a lot of creating. So even with the Ancients not knowing what would await them if they pursued Meteion, it was a fair assumption that just turning up as Ancients would go poorly.

Of course, when we went to Ultima Thule, we learned that assumption was very much correct, because it turns out the only means of survival and traversal was through dynamis manipulation. First Thancred making the space actually baseline habitable, and then by interacting with Ultima Thule's inhabitants to counteract their corrupt dynamis preventing further traversal. Of course, it's not just dynamis manipulation that was needed, but also personal experience to speak from, but the former was just as required as the latter.

Dynamis was literally mandatory for humanity to fight Meteion and truly stop the End of Days rather than just blocking it. The question of whether fighting Meteion at all was necessary after Zodiark got put up is still an open one, but a certain Fancy Daniel forced the issue there.

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theres also the fact that the meteia were speeding up the heat death of the universe so even if they just hid behind zodiark the universe would end instead.

More pointedly, when we first get to Ultima Thule we can't even observe it - there's literally nothing there. It's a realm of near-pure dynamis, so the aether-dense Ancients wouldn't be able to perceive it, let alone shape it into a form they could traverse. The only aether they would have to manipulate is their own, and while it's significantly more than what mortals have it's still not unlimited. Enough negative dynamis - say, the known universe's worth - would be more than enough to smother even Emet-Selch.

Second, the Ancients didn't have the life experience necessary to overcome Meteion's despair. They lived in a near utopia with their every want at their fingertips, and when that utopia was taken from them they elected to commit suicide and mass sacrifice of other living things instead of processing their grief and living on. Amaurotine society was a dead end as far as defeating Meteion (instead of just shielding Etheriys from her song of oblivion) goes. Mortals have faced such despair because their lives are shorter and filled with uncertainty, so they have learned to be brave and believe in a better tomorrow.

... and bear in mind the game does not say what Hydaelyn did was good or right, only necessary. There is a difference.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

That one mob - not even a miniboss- in Vanaspati where the mother Arkasadora transforms into a blasphemy and her children begging for her and get also transformed? It's a minor thing, none of the characters are named, and yet every single run of that dungeon it is an emotional gut punch on the same scale as the Vault aftermath. I hate it, but in a way the recognizes that yep the writers and scenario designers got to me.

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That got me too. And its really awesome how different trusts react to it. Alphinaud and Graha for example run towards the children, wanting to help only to be shocked and sad when they turned. It really gives life to these situations.