Death unto Dawn page up

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

So you're insisting that because the orders were specifically to only protect her when she was outside, that Arenvald shouldn't/wouldn't/couldn't express remorse for not protecting his charge? He's an honorable guy, even blamed himself for Krile's kidnapping. Very relatable to us. I doubt he's gonna lawyer his way around the specifics of swearing to protect someone's life. It's pretty clear that the writers chose to drop the Noraxia portion of his past.

Yeah, I'm aware that Noraxia's part was a bit part, but it was still more than Aulie's or A'aba's, and Arenvald's at the time. If you choose not to talk to them, you don't even meet them.

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I'm saying that you are grasping at straws with his "oathbreaking" and his karma being due to him for not protecting his charge when he had no need to protect it WHILE in the Waking Sands as it was not his duty to solely protect it. He didn't fail in anything and his friends sacrificed themselves to protect him. He can regret not being able to protect everyone but you can't say it was his fault at time. There is no bad Karma and no Oathbreaking. I'm sure our Character regrets not being there to try to help protect them as well.

I mean even if he wasn't in said cutscene we as you've stated before don't see everything as it was going on. However I can tell you it was a huge amount of fighting as it could be heard by the people outside (who comment even on it) no he did what he could and lost two people who were close to him as they covered his escape.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

I'm saying that you are grasping at straws

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Am I? No character is perfect, and I've got no real hatred for Arenvald. I just wish he addressed something about this, because he did swear to protect her. You're basically saying that his next words are empty, because of specific stipulations set forth for his duty as a Scion.

He swore. That's an oath, a promise. As presented it means he doesn't care about it at all.

The blame for Noraxia's death is ultimately on the Garleans, but that doesn't mean that Arenvald kept his promise.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Am I? No character is perfect, and I've got no real hatred for Arenvald. I just wish he addressed something about this, because he did swear to protect her. You're basically saying that his next words are empty, because of specific stipulations set forth for his duty as a Scion.

He swore. That's an oath, a promise. As presented it means he doesn't care about it at all.

The blame for Noraxia's death is ultimately on the Garleans, but that doesn't mean that Arenvald kept his promise.

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You are still grasping at straws. You continually claim he failed and broke a promise to protect it. However, it was still just contingent on them going outside of the Waking Sands you're also contributing his friends making him leave during said fighting was him breaking said oath.

You do not know how exactly he handled that situation, and as you said it was not shown. The only dialogue after was him mourning the loss of his friends when they held the line so he could escape. You don't know how much he had fought and how much of it had been a losing battle.

One thing we can infer from everything that happened during the Waking Sands is they were ALL taken by surprise they all fought and they LOST. Noraxia died a meaningless death and while he may blame himself he wouldn't be blaming himself just for the death of one he would do it for all the life lost that day and then determine to make himself stronger in which he did.

(BTW don't take this as me being angry or anything with you it is just a discussion and I keep trying to figure out how to put in something about Thancred being Lahabreated =P)

Edut: just to be clearer I'm saying you're grasping at straws for a reason that he needs to have comeuppance or karma for something that happened beyond his control.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

You are still grasping at straws. You continually claim he failed and broke a promise to protect it. However, it was still just contingent on them going outside of the Waking Sands you're also contributing his friends making him leave during said fighting was him breaking said oath.

You do not know how exactly he handled that situation, and as you said it was not shown. The only dialogue after was him mourning the loss of his friends when they held the line so he could escape. You don't know how much he had fought and how much of it had been a losing battle.

One thing we can infer from everything that happened during the Waking Sands is they were ALL taken by surprise they all fought and they LOST. Noraxia died a meaningless death and while he may blame himself he wouldn't be blaming himself just for the death of one he would do it for all the life lost that day and then determine to make himself stronger in which he did.

(BTW don't take this as me being angry or anything with you it is just a discussion and I keep trying to figure out how to put in something about Thancred being Lahabreated =P)

Edut: just to be clearer I'm saying you're grasping at straws for a reason that he needs to have comeuppance or karma for something that happened beyond his control.

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I didn't write the rules on karma man, and I didn't ever say that I think he should pay a comeuppance. When you break an oath, it's bad karma. That's all.

The vagueness of the scene is pretty much what allows them to write him back into the story at all. I don't think we'll ever have the details. I don't mind being disagreed with, but I'm not grasping at straws at all. You've just added a layer to the cake of what I'm saying that I didn't bake.

But I'm totally game to bake some Lahabread. Since Thanbread was sitting by the door with his hands all Mr. Burnsesque, mayhaps it was Lahabread planning the raid. While Thanbread was saying sweet nothings to us.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I didn't write the rules on karma man, and I didn't ever say that I think he should pay a comeuppance. When you break an oath, it's bad karma. That's all.

The vagueness of the scene is pretty much what allows them to write him back into the story at all. I don't think we'll ever have the details. I don't mind being disagreed with, but I'm not grasping at straws at all. You've just added a layer to the cake of what I'm saying that I didn't bake.

But I'm totally game to bake some Lahabread. Since Thanbread was sitting by the door with his hands all Mr. Burnsesque, mayhaps it was Lahabread planning the raid. While Thanbread was saying sweet nothings to us.

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I mean yes if an oath is broken however the situation you keep describing is not an oath breaking situation in the terms of Karma. Karma doesn't go and use it against you in a situation that is beyond someone's control.

The best example of him breaking his oath would be if he and Noraxia where out of the Waking Sands to ohhhh say go to Frixio to advise them of something that is going on. While on their way there, they are attacked by Garleans and instead of Arenvald doing his job... he flees and Noraxia gets killed.

That would be him breaking his oath, that would be something for Karma to come back and bite him in the ass. Not due to what happened in the Waking Sands...

That is grasping at straws it really is and not what Karma is or does.

Karma is the repercussion of doing something intentionally for either good or ill.

And lol who needs Intel inside when you have Ascian inside.... you get Lahabreated =P

Btw does anyone remember if anyone in Vesper Bay actually say the how Garleans come in or was it like I'm thinking that Lahadumbass went all Organization 13 with the Garleans and Transported them via Corridor of Darkness... that would explain how easily they could slip in and without people realizing it....

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Btw does anyone remember if anyone in Vesper Bay actually say the how Garleans come in or was it like I'm thinking that Lahadumbass went all Organization 13 with the Garleans and Transported them via Corridor of Darkness... that would explain how easily they could slip in and without people realizing it....

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It's specifically mentioned in some mandatory dialogue that Lahabrea must've used some kind of teleportation magick to get the Garleans in there as they saw nobody enter the building before the attack happened.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I vaguely recall it being mentioned in some mandatory dialogue that Lahabrea must've used some kind of teleportation magick to get the Garleans in there as they saw nobody enter the building before the attack happened.

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Thanks, I remember speaking to an NPC after it happened that they had no idea what was going on but they heard screaming and fighting (I think). I know for a fact they mentioned screaming....

In this case of “bad karma” i guess Raubahn decides to die too since he didn’t guard the sultana from being poisoned. :p

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

In this case of “bad karma” i guess Raubahn decides to die too since he didn’t guard the sultana from being poisoned. :p

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Why stop there? How many characters has the Warrior of Light failed to protect? ;)

More seriously, although he doesn't look it...Arenvald's only nineteen. If we're going to blame someone for Noraxia not being guarded properly, maybe we can look at the simple fact that the Scions had numerous veterans to call upon but chose to entrust such an important task to a novice?

Not that it'd have made much difference, I'd wager. Everybody there at the time was either captured or killed. Arenvald's presence likely would not have made much difference.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

The whole scene with the Garleans storming the place is visually fairly vague. Like, with how violent they were being, there was no reason for them to actually spare Urianger, Tataru, or Papalymo. Particularly Tataru. They literally killed everyone else, even the gear mender and the unarmed Ala Mhigan espionage guy.

When you enter the Waking Sands, there are more corpses on the floor than when Livia strikes the killing blow on Noraxia. Only Urianger, Tataru, and Papalymo are lead out alive. We never learn why.

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The Archons were spared and arrested by the Garleans because of their potential intelligence and information they might possess that would be useful to the Garleans, specifically concerning the Echo and Primals (you see this later in a scene in Castrum Centri where Livia is seen torturing Minfilia for information about the Echo) - the main fatalities in the Waking Sands were just random adventurers and Ul'dahan Immortal Flames guards and hence 'cannon fodder'. Tataru being the doorgirl and secretary also would have knowledge of the comings and goings of the organisation, and especially potential whereabouts of the actual target of the raid (who wasn't even there) - you, the adventurer who became the Warrior of Light - so she was arrested too.

Remember, Lahabrea had possessed Thancred by this stage and would have had access to his memories and knowledge - he would have known exaxctly who would have been the most important for information to the Garleans, and simply instructed Livia on who to seek out. Also the Garleans' long standing hatred for the beastmen meant Livia's especially brutal killing of Noraxia was hardly unexpected - the poor little sylph was not even a sentient being in Livia's eyes, just yet another monster to be put down.

The attack on the Waking Sands was to gain information about the Echo, specifically it's protection from Primal tempering, and in particular capture one particularly potent Echo user that had started making a name for themself as the 'Eikon Slayer', but failing to apprehend you, the Sharlayan Archons along with the Scions' leader and her secretary would naturally be the most useful, everyone else in there is simply expendable (and thus slaughtered). Also, Livia herself kills one of her own troops for being too bloodthirsty (as I recall the soldier was in such a frenzy he was basically butchering an already dead corpse with a spear), so it was zigzagged as to the Garleans unnecessarily brutal response on the place.

Either way, the attack on the Waking Sands somewhat failed in it's objectives - it was to capture the future Warrior of Light in order to gain some insight into how the Echo protects against tempering, but Livia utterly failed in that objective, and so simply arrested the next best thing - Minfilia, Tataru and the Archons who she hoped at least would field some useful info. Everyone else sadly in the Waking Sands at the time was superflorous, and thus condemmed to death for being witnesses to the attack.

If Arenvald had stayed and guarded Minfilia and Noraxia, he would have almost certainly been killed by Livia anyway, a noble death is still a death that would have been totally avoidable.