Patch 3.4 - Soul Surrender

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Originally Posted by myahele

I think intentional or not, those who summon a primal are instantly tempered. At least that's what Ramuh said.

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That's correct; I believe it was mentioned somewhere that, in addition to his unique non-malicious stance, Ramuh doesn't actively seek to temper followers. (Ramuh's unique term for those "blessed" by his power is "touched.") Aside from those who ask him to temper them, Ramuh only tempers those in his immediate vicinity when summoned. It's an involuntary reaction of the summoning ritual.

Ifrit tempers (nearly indiscriminately), Garuda tempers everything, leviathan drowns (non sahagin), ramuh touches (few), titan does not seem to temper anyone. Thordan, shiva, king mog, Bismarck, and ravana don't temper anyone either (though iirc the possibility is mentioned with ravana, even though he is similar to titan in seeming to care for his children; and similar to ramuh in his reasoning with the WoL).
Remember that shiva, thordan, and moogle are different kinds of primals.
I'm taking 'artistic' to mean something along the lines of the thordan story mode or similar to the fight with the grand companies with plenty of dialogue.

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Originally Posted by S__th_rn_fl_am_

Ifrit tempers (nearly indiscriminately), Garuda tempers everything, leviathan drowns (non sahagin), ramuh touches (few), titan does not seem to temper anyone. Thordan, shiva, king mog, Bismarck, and ravana don't temper anyone either.

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Thordan potentially tempered the Heavensward, and was willing to temper anyone who was in the way in the name of peace. Good King Moggle Mog XII also tempered his Pomguard, though it broke after his defeat (somehow). Bahamut tempered Nael and Lou, and Titan did temper some of the Company of Heroes when they attempted to stop him in 1.x...we just don't know if he tempers Kobolds (though, based on what we've been given, its unlikely)

Yes, Bismark, being the primal incarnation of hunger, is unlikely to temper anything it doesn't eat, and Ravana didn't seem to temper any Gnath (but, we have no real information on that). Shiva is another unknown; she may have (some Heretics display signs of being tempered) but we don't know for sure. Phoenix also had no chance to temper anyone, and Enkidu is Enkidu. Odin tempers whoever takes hold of Zantesuken (spelled correctly, of course), and the Triad almost certainly tempered people when they were free 5000+ years ago.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I think intentional or not, those who summon a primal are instantly tempered. At least that's what Ramuh said.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

That's correct <...> Aside from those who ask him to temper them, Ramuh only tempers those in his immediate vicinity when summoned. It's an involuntary reaction of the summoning ritual.

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I knew I remembered this, too, so I went hunting for citations.

Is our only reference for "summoning = instant tempered" from Frixio?

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Originally Posted by Frixio

These ones resorted to summoning Lord Ramuh to protect the wood from imperial ones. This one counseled against doing so, but was not heeded. Against this one's wishes, Lord Ramuh was summoned...and all those ones who took part became touched ones. These ones want so desperately to turn touched ones back to normal ones, but did not know how─and still do not know. Touched ones, meanwhile, wanted to turn these ones into touched ones, and did know how... So this one fled to Little Solace with all those ones who did not wish to be bound to Lord Ramuh.

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Something about that sits awkwardly with me. Twice we've seen a crowd stand directly next to a summoning of Ifrit, as close as the summoners themselves, and no one was affected until he went all creme brulee on everyone. That line might simply be saying that the ones who summoned Ramuh were the same ones who begged to be tempered by him. Do we have other lines to cite to narrow down the specifics?

We could try to get around it by assuming that the act of summoning immediately tempers the summoners alone, but does that come with the automatic acceptance that zero beast tribes lack tempered factions?

Looking through the Occam lens leaves me with a sense that summoning in and of itself doesn't necessarily temper anyone (though perhaps you could use aetherial reside from the area where tempering took place to further temper others, as is implied the Sahagin do), yet most - if not all - modern beast tribes do have a faction of tempered-by-request fanatics. (However, the door is open for me just having forgotten some great examples to cite.)

Well, my point was more that Titan is seemingly not going to temper anyone if he is killing Kobold... He should have no reason to out right kill any Kobold, if he needs them to fall in line he should just be able to temper them and be done with it... I guess the only alternative is that they're Echo blessed Kobold rebels? I find it more likely that he is just rampaging, and thus it's possible the Scions can safely follow us into the Bowl of Embers later to figure out what's happening, or Ifrit goes down before we even get there/the battle with Derplander works as a distraction, sort of like I guess happened with Ravana...

Now that I think of it though... Did Titan even try to temper us? Ifrit and Garuda certainly tried, though Garuda conveniently forgot she had that power when Cid and Alphinaud showed up (maybe it was on cooldown), and when Gaius dropped by... Leviathan also didn't try, although if drowning is a requirement for his method of tempering, perhaps he did... If that is the case, then I guess that kind of excuses him pretty much ignoring the Scions and Maelstrom command that were practically handed to him on a silver plater... Still, Titan never tried anything, did he? I seem to recall the cut 1.0 scenes having some tempered people fighting in it, but well... Cut 1.0 scenes... Nothing since, which definitely happened, seems to indicate he has done much tempering...

Tempering is not a plot device that I'm particularly pleased with, either way... It's just kinda there and it only matters when it wants too... Only Krile and Kidibus can get remotely involved with our Triad fights, but seemingly everyone is safe for a little jaunt inside Alexander... Bahamut tempered Nael from across space, but Alphinaud and Alisaie can stand within sneezing distance and are more worried about Megaflares... It's not particularly well explained or consistent, IMO...

Oh, and regarding the summoning ritual itself tempering the summoner... Questionable contributions to lore aside, I guess old Greg isn't a thrall to Enkidu now, is he?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

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That really is a pretty good question; I just remembered the time with Ifrit and being only a few hundred feet away with no ill effects on the soldiers until he tried to torch everyone.

Well, even if only the summoners were tempered, given Ramuh's unique stance on the matter... if the sylphs were desperate enough to summon him, they would more than likely have asked for it. So the sylphs that summoned Ramuh getting tempered is, theoretically, because they wanted him to, not because they were nearby when he was summoned. The "close proximity to summoning = insta-tempering" is contradicted by our experience with Ifrit, and also Leviathan depending on how far you gauge said proximity to be. So...

The wonders of critical thinking! But, I'm tired and too lazy to go look up citations...

Honestly I think the reason why we don't see Ravana Temper any of the Gnath is because he only really needs to temper one particular Gnath. The Onemind leader in this case. It could explain why Nonmind show no affiliation to Ravana after gaining sentience.

Just thinking out loud ^^

I guess what I was trying say was tempering seems to have had rules up to about ramuh and then not so much.
The primals became way more complex and I think tempering wasn't really needed since the later prinals worked differently. I don't think the heretics, mog guard, or heavens ward were tempered, just remained loyal. But this is just another example of how it's not very clear and doesn't seem to be consistent after the first elemental primals.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Now that I think of it though... Did Titan even try to temper us? Ifrit and Garuda certainly tried, though Garuda conveniently forgot she had that power when Cid and Alphinaud showed up (maybe it was on cooldown),

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It actually WAS on cooldown, I can't remember exactly where I read this but I believe that's how the Company of Heroes defeated either Titan or Leviathan (sorry, Tidus or Leviabeetus), they sent one group that got tempered, another to fight the tempered and the final one to deal with the primal itself. That means that tempering can only be done at certain intervals and the primal needs to recharge (maybe by absorbing more aether...)

Just over a day until 3.4 goes live! I'm going to tackle Sophia first, I think and then the MSQ to soak up all the new lore. I have a good feeling that 3.4 will give us a lot of new major plot revelations to work with.