What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's not implied - what is implied is that they'd use the life seeded by Zodiark, which given what we now know of how creation magicks functioned and the apparent emergence of life on the star (i.e. that the ancients were responsible for at the least a good chunk of it), is very likely to be further creations. When you say "new races", there are none. The sundered are sundered ancients who evolved in specific ways in response to their new circumstances according to the Q&A. All this leaves is animals, plant life and arcane entities/familiars (of which the WoL is not considered to be a characteristic example, as per the sidequests... even Meteion, an unapproved familiar which nonetheless is herself in some facets robotic, is exceptional.) So effectively, arcane AIs in the last category.

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Hm. In that transcript, though, Emet-Selch says that the opposing view was to hand over the star to the new life that had been created from the second sacrifice. That doesn't imply plants, animals and unintelligent familiars.

Or, even if it did, it seems like a "Mass Effect"-esque situation where the anti-sacrifice faction felt that the unintelligent species would eventually evolve into intelligent ones to carry the torch.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

...and yet that's exactly what Venat chose to do. To inflict genocide upon her own people and seek to destroy all memory of their existence whilst stealing credit from Zodiark for protecting Etheirys not only in the days of the Unsundered but during the days of the Sundered as well.

It makes perfect sense for the Sundered to do whatever is possible in order to continue to exist - but at the same time that can be applied to the Unsundered as well.

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Oh I'm not on the Venat boat. That stuffed made me very angry. Please don't confuse anti-rejoining with pro-Venat or anti-Ancients

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Many people lol. Not in this thread specifically but the other threads trying to rip apart the ancients and find every little thing they did “wrong” to try and justify them being sundered and trying to justify venat’s actions. They think that because they unmade creations they’re horrible people. When in reality the sundered do far worse but none of them comment on that. That’s my entire problem with this. I understand the reasoning behind most of the sundered’s actions, the same i do the ancients. I don’t necessarily condemn either side. But if people are going to start bringing up things that the ancients do and are wrong for doing when the sundered do the same thing and no one comments on it or people don’t classify that as wrong..then i will speak up because like in the other thread i made, there’s this horrible trend in the story of “It’s okay when the main cast does it, but if the antagonists do it it’s bad and wrong.”

Edit: Just an example from someone here as proof.

"As much as I love the characters and the lore around it, I'm not convinced that Amaurot was worth saving. When Hermes describes his colleagues' blatant disregard for non-Amaurotian life yet had no language to express his dissent with it, I couldn't help but feel deeply uncomfortable with the wordless cruelty of whole place. It most certainly was not beautiful. It was high time that the gods learnt to walk."

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Well that's messed up, but that doesn't mean that people who are anti-rejoining are anti-ancient or even pro-sundered. I'm anti-rejoining because I'm pro-"who is alive right now?"

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Hm. In that transcript, though, Emet-Selch says that the opposing view was to hand over the star to the new life that had been created from the second sacrifice. That doesn't imply plants, animals and unintelligent familiars.

Or, even if it did, it seems like a "Mass Effect"-esque situation where the anti-sacrifice faction felt that the unintelligent species would eventually evolve into intelligent ones to carry the torch.

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Yes, I'm aware of it, and your second paragraph is something I've offered in the past as a potential way to reconcile that, because the writers have really cornered themselves following the Q&A and what we know of creations in terms of what these beings could be.

Something to bear in mind is that Hyth's shade is stating that the opposing viewpoint came from her faction. So with that in mind, given that we know that from every scene we've seen of them, her faction not once opposes the sacrifices intrinsically (even going so far as to reinforce that she will not speak against the Convocation for they only do what is best for the star), but only ever in the context of those sacrifices being the potential catalyst (in her mind) of them eventually reaching the fate of the Plenty (in SHB, repeating their doom), and with Venat's willingness to manipulate through withholding the truth or even lying, I am leaning towards that ME scenario you describe as what was going on there, as the narrative they were using to undermine support for the sacrifices. Again, with the end goal being to avoid the Plenty. Not so much any inherent regard for the sacrifices in question.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Oh I'm not on the Venat boat. That stuffed made me very angry. Please don't confuse anti-rejoining with pro-Venat or anti-Ancients



Well that's messed up, but that doesn't mean that people who are anti-rejoining are anti-ancient or even pro-sundered. I'm anti-rejoining because I'm pro-"who is alive right now?"

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Well tbf, the matter of alive is a bit muddy in 14's world. The ancients souls were very much alive in Zodiark, so they were still living. We basically rendered their entire race extinct though by killing Emet and Elidibus. Regardless of that though, i do find it strange the WoL and the scions have expressed 0 interest in trying to create a branching timeline for the ancients with the help of the crystal tower, especially since we are still able to go there for pandaemonium. It doesnt sit right with me that were basically going there and acting all smiles and sunshine when we're talking to people we know are doomed and are doing nothing to stop it.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

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Uh....it doesn't work like that.
You realize what that would look like? For Venat to step up with all this. "Oh and by the way. I'm the only one who knows anything about it."
They would treat her as if she were crazy. There was no proof of any of it and nothing TO prove any of it.

All she could give people is some whacked-out story about a time traveler coming back and relating events from the future, in which the world is sundered, practically every Ancient being is dead, a mind-wipe that conveniently leaves her as the only person who remembers.

You see how Emet reacted with the story in the MSQ, right? Utter garbage. It can't possibly be true. You think a majority of the Ancients would think differently?

Remember these are the people whom any number of willingly gave their lives for Zodiark to come into being. And then more still gave their lives trying to bring the first group back.

What many don't really seem to grasp is that the story is nothing more than a simple time loop.

1. We are born, a reincarnation of Azem.
2. Hydaelyn makes us the Warrior of Light.
3. ARR -> HW -> Sb -> ShB
4. We go back to Elpis.
5. We witness the cause of the Final Days, partially triggering it by our presence and the foreknowledge we give to Hythlodaeus, Emet Selch, and Venat. (This is why Hythlodaeus keeps calling us his "new old friend".)
6. The foreknowledge which enables Venat's memory to remain intact and thus allow her to become Hydaelyn.
7. We return to the future to continue the story. Hydaelyn moves forward through history to #1, and then she moves forward as well, to the point where we meet her in the Mothercrystal.

There was never an instant where we weren't on Elpis. The MSQ that took place there always happened historically. Just nobody knew it, because how could they? Even Emet-Selch didn't know, because his mind was wiped.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It doesnt sit right with me that were basically going there and acting all smiles and sunshine when we're talking to people we know are doomed and are doing nothing to stop it.

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That's the thing though. History can't be changed. You want a good example of this? Watch Futurama, s07e03 "Decision 3012". If you've seen it, you have a good idea of what I'm gonna say.

1. Something bad happens.
2. You go back into the past and stop it from happening.
3. You succeed in stopping it.
4. It immediately happens anyways. Because by stopping it, you lost the reason for going back in time in the first place. IE, you never went back in time, so you never stopped it, and the bad thing happens anyways.

In XIV terms, you can't stop the Final Days, Zodiark, or Hydaelyn from taking place.
If we stop the Final Days in the past, the world isn't sundered, and we don't exist, in which case we can't go back in time, and the Final Days takes place anyway.
Just like you can't save the Ancients, because honestly who is going to believe you? You aren't seen as anything more than a familliar. And you and Venat are the only two who actually know what was going on.

The concern in MSQ about us changing the past, and not interacting (because we are incorporeal at first), was never really a concern. We didn't change anything by going back into the past. The WoL has always gone back into the past, the events on Elpis always played out that way. Our presence was necessary not to change the past, but to ensure it happened exactly as it was.

Of course, that's all because this is how the story was written, etc etc.

If you need another example, Back to the Future is a good one. The story makes like Marty was changing things, and he was, technically. He ensured that his mother actually noticed his father. The argument is the same as what happens in XIV. Marty always went back in time, and always helped his father and mother fall in love, thereby ensuring his own existence.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Well tbf, the matter of alive is a bit muddy in 14's world. The ancients souls were very much alive in Zodiark, so they were still living. We basically rendered their entire race extinct though by killing Emet and Elidibus. Regardless of that though, i do find it strange the WoL and the scions have expressed 0 interest in trying to create a branching timeline for the ancients with the help of the crystal tower, especially since we are still able to go there for pandaemonium. It doesnt sit right with me that were basically going there and acting all smiles and sunshine when we're talking to people we know are doomed and are doing nothing to stop it.

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Agreed, I've said something similar in this thread actually. The fact that the time travel with multiple timelines exists in this story (thanks G'raha), but we don't try to do that in EW is very stupid. It comes off as the writers wanting the cake and eating the cake. I've long been of the opinion that Elpis would have been better served as ruins we visit and see things with Echo visions. Even the instance fight with Venat, the dungeon, and all of Pandaemonium could stay in the game, we are simply viewing the events as someone else's memories and we are in place of that person for the fights. It's very disingenuous to let us shake hands with a memory and not try to save it at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Valfreyja

Uh....it doesn't work like that.
You realize what that would look like? For Venat to step up with all this. "Oh and by the way. I'm the only one who knows anything about it."
They would treat her as if she were crazy. There was no proof of any of it and nothing TO prove any of it.

All she could give people is some whacked-out story about a time traveler coming back and relating events from the future, in which the world is sundered, practically every Ancient being is dead, a mind-wipe that conveniently leaves her as the only person who remembers.

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I don't have time today to type up a reply to all of this but on this point. No. Just no.

Approximately two or three cutscenes before we confront Hermes we are shown (by Venat) exactly how the Ancients (all the ancients) are able to use their version of the Echo to view events of the past. Either by looking into the memories of a person as they relive them or by reading the ambient aether of a location. This makes the idea that nothing can ever be proven to be true or false completely moot. And people not taking Venat seriously? No, again, sorry. Not only was she a former member of the Convocation and not some shrieking madman with a placard on a street corner, we have been shown that the Ancients are a society of reason. They would be willing to hear her out at the very least. And all she would have to do is lead them back to Elpis to witness events for themselves, not to mention hearing the testimony of the many people who were there and saw and spoke with us themselves.

It's a stupid plot point and attempt at justification which is easily undone.

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Originally Posted by Valfreyja

Uh....it doesn't work like that.
You see how Emet reacted with the story in the MSQ, right? Utter garbage. It can't possibly be true. You think a majority of the Ancients would think differently?

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Yet, he still saw it as his duty to investigate the matter due to the fate of the star.. You know how people literally saw you and Venat enter the same building with Emet, Hythlo, and Hermes.. yet none of them remember a damn thing? Rather suspicious, but ofc handwave it. Also the majority's opinion doesn't really matter it's 14 dudes/dudettes who are relevant. I haven't played Pandenomium yet but I doubt what goes down there is like a major public knowledge either.

Emet: Hermes, did you happen to make several copies of twitter?

Hermes: Yeah why?

Emet: No reason.

Emet: Alright Venat I'm listening. ( but more tsun )

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Originally Posted by Valfreyja

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Couple things here. Number one, there is nothing to indicate they would really treat her as crazy. Especially if you realize yknow, the goddamn echo exists so she can literally show them exactly what happened.

Secondly….history can be changed. Do you not remember that iconic line from graha in Shb? “If history is to be unwritten, then let it be unwritten.” They literally created a branching timeline so the protagonists could be saved….so why can’t we do the same for the ancients?

Once you start going back in time and preventing tragedies, where does it stop? After we save the ancients, why don't we go back in time and save Minfilia, and Loiusiox, and every other npc we have ever lost. The cast can just start ballooning with alternative timeline versions of every character.

How could any tragedy ever have any impact if we could just go hop in the crystal tower and reverse it? I think it's better if time travel has some limitations on how you can influence past events. The 8UC stuff only works narratively because the WoL was so far removed from it.