Warrior "buff" in 2.1: not what we are expecting?

Don't see why they can't just give warrior a silence on the GCD with a short cooldown. Then pld would have a stun on a short cd on the GCD and a silence with a long cd off the gcd and warrior would have a stun off the gcd with a long cooldown and a silence on the GCD with a short cooldown. Then utility wise they'd be pretty even. Then make warrior stun 20s and pld silence 20s and brd silence 20s.

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Originally Posted by Elemia

20 pages later I see this is still the case

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Essentially - if you add up the totals...

PLD

Static:
-20% DMG taken, -20% DMG dealt

Active:
-20% DMG taken CD
-40% DMG taken CD
+60% Block Rate CD
+30% DMG dealt CD
Invulnerability CD
Block/Parry

Debuffs:
Blind
Strength Down
Silence
Stun

Combo/Enmity:
AoE Threat MP base
Enmity Combo
MP Combo
Taunt (Provoke)

WAR

Static:
+25% HP, +20% Healing -25% DMG dealt

Active:
-30% DMG taken CD
+20% DEF CD
+50% ATK 5s Pacification
Holmgang (1 HP "Brink of Death") CD
Parry
+20% HP (Heal/Shield Thrill of Battle)
HP absorb
Infuriate (Wrath V)
Single DOT

Debuffs:
Strength Down ?? (some new buff or debuff on Path)
-10% Slash Resist
Stun

Combo/Enmity:
AoE Threat TP Base
AoE Threat MP Base
Enmity Combo
Maim +20% DMG Buff

Wrath Options:
100% of DMG to HP and -20% DMG (IB)
+25% to DMG (Unchained)
AOE Enmity DMG (Cyclone)

Wrath at the moment is very static thing you hold onto and expend only when your HP is low or when you know you're safe from a potential DMG spike and won't need extra healing. Now Wrath is something we actively build/manage/expend depending on the current situation. I'm sure many players will only use Wrath for Inner Beast and the -20% DMG - but situations like Coil Turn 4 being able to use Steel Cyclone and know it's going to generate enough AOE Enmity to hold everything off your group is going to be more valuable IMO because it won't cost you excess TP or MP to execute.

Really WAR has always had more abilities - this just tweaks them so that they have to be using all their abilities and Wrath frequently.

The extra HP is just extra HP - basically we've been given a Rampart and Sentinel equivalent (though still less). We still don't benefit from having the extra chance of Blocking damage and Parrying; we've still only got Parry. WAR is going to be tied to maintaining a tri-combo rotation without losing hate - that's not simple or easy and not everyone will be good at it. PLD has nice direct powerful tools and always has; it's not going to be at a disadvantage. Holmgang has become a pseudo Provoke/Hallowed Ground - but you still can take a lot a of damage when you use it.

They've both got their advantages and disadvantages. WAR will truly shine on things like Coil Turn 4 - where generating AOE threat can be a hassle; but we can't restore our MP endlessly like a PLD so we will still need a BRD baby sitting us.

I have both tanks and I think these changes will make PLD and WAR compliment each other well as a tanking duo. Some things a WAR will MT while the PLD OTs and vice versa - as it should be.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

I would give up Bulwark, Sentential and Rampart (all of them) in exchange for a skill that works like the newly described IB.

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No, They are not issues, they are your Class's abilities.

Bulwark is fantastic, I see no reason for you to even try arguing that it's in any way lacking. I have 100% blocked Mountain buster with it up as my Paladin.

Play Warrior instead, since that's exactly what we do now, (Give up all of them) except without were also missing Hallowed Ground, and the IB buff that is on it's way.
Once you play our class in coil, you will realize why we need these buffs because of your healers getting angry and OOM.

Point being, we still don't have your mitigation WITH the new IB. You still have Rampart when you need it. We don't ALWAYS have IB, we have to wait 25 seconds to use it, and it's only a 6 second duration. Take that with your constant added Mitigation effects.... The thing about Paladins, is they have SO many CD's at their disposal with such long durations, that you effectively DO have that ability with even greater mitigation built into them in total whenever you need it. + they last WAY longer giving your healers time to catch up and take a breather.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

I would give up Bulwark, Sentential and Rampart (all of them) in exchange for a skill that works like the newly described IB. This is because I use those three skills as a precursor to help survive spike damage where healers might be falling behind for a few seconds. The remaining duration of the skill after those few seconds is mostly useless after the healers have caught up.

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As would i. It would seem that people in this thread do not actually see that the most OP thing in that preview is inner beast.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

You still have Rampart when you need it.

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No. No i dont. Death sentence is cast every 35 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

No. No i dont. Death sentence is cast every 35 seconds.

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And yet you can still MT that encounter.... Strange.... how is that working?

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

As would i. It would seem that people in this thread do not actually see that the most OP thing in that preview is inner beast.

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Considering there is much less healing than before(1/3) and we only get the dmg reduction for 6 seconds, how is it OP? 300 HP leech and 6 seconds of 20% barely covers ground with a PLD constant 20% and the amount of healing you need to top back up.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

And yet you can still MT that encounter.... Strange.... how is that working?

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Probably just like that guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMYvBv9JJQ0

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Probably just like that guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMYvBv9JJQ0

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So literally, this skill is NOT needed because of Death Sentence. Stop crying that we got a buff.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Bulwark is fantastic

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Do yourself a favor, and step far, far away from the tanking forum, as clearly, with that statement alone, shows you don't have even the most basic of a grasp on the way the game works and damage mitigation. Please save what little (if any?) credibility you have, and do not hit the "Post Reply" button if you are going to spout such useless nonsense.

Bulwark is awful, and the math has been done many many many times, to prove how little mitigation it actually is. Is it nice to have when all else fails? Sure anything is better than nothing, you can't 100% block a mountain buster, and that right there alone proves you're clueless. You can dodge a mountain buster, but so can anyone, my BRD has dodge a mountain buster before. Assuming a best case scenario, that Bulwark is additive and not multiplicative, it puts your block rate at around 85% sake for arguements sake. This is for 15 seconds, and you can't use it again for 180 seconds. It does nothing to mitigate magic damage, and it doesnt allow you to block more damage per attack, just allows you to get a shield block more often on attacks. It's better than nothing, but it probably shines then most when multi-mob tanking as the more chances you have to block during its up time, the more effective it is. Personally I like my Job Specific abilities to be useful in progression content, not just speed runs.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Considering there is much less healing than before(1/3) and we only get the dmg reduction for 6 seconds, how is it OP? 300 HP leech and 6 seconds of 20% barely covers ground with a PLD constant 20% and the amount of healing you need to top back up.

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My constant 20% is your defiance, healing abilities and maxHP. The OP thing is you will be able to use Inner Beast on every big hitting move any boss does in this this game. Paladins would not be able to do so.