"Fix" Speed Runs? How about fixing the real issue?

Anyone using bots this early is pretty stupid. You'll get caught and banned and you'll be less than a drop in the ocean.

So essentially just have boss fights that is over in 3 minutes or less each....this game needs more content, not LESS.

So, let's get this straight then, based on skimming through this thread. Those who opposed speed runs feel that killing trash mobs are more than good enough incentive, since after all, you 'are supposed' to kill every mobs before getting to boss. Great.

Let's say you need 900 tomestones for getting the relic. You mean to tell me that you're totally cool with spending 60+ minutes per run, killing trash mobs over and over again, and losing money due to repair, and get little benefit out of it, and you're fine doing that 9 times in a row? Go ahead and try to claim that getting crafting materials is good enough incentive. I'm sure someone would be willing to buy whatever you make with it given how of little use most craftable gears are.

And of course, those who don't want to have to kill trash mobs unless necessary, are being accused of "feeling entitled', and god It's even amusing that speed runs are considered an "exploit".

Let's go look at FFXI, specifically the endgame events:

Dynamis: All trash mobs dropped Relic AF, currencies, and rare crafting materials, which are required for relic weapons. Some even extend the time limit duration in Dynamis.

Limbus: Every mobs dropped limbus currency, which are highly valuable, and can be sold for a lot of money, or used to buy rare gears, that can only be purchased with the said limbus currencies. (Aka Ancient Beastmen's coin.)

Salvage: You enter with extreme status/gear limitations. To fix this, you need cells. what drop cells? Mobs.

Sky and Sea: Most mobs are skipped via sneak or invis, or people just avoid them if they are true sight, and generally go directly to boss or targeted mobs that are part of the NM system chain. However, some mobs have to be fought to farm key items to sub bosses for the primary bosses.

Considering that a good majority of FFXIV players also played FFXI, and hell i'm willing to bet that many of them even participated in any of these events. IS it REALLY that surprising, that people feel that it's unfair to kill trash mobs that give absolutely no benefit whatsoever? Again, please don't even try to say "BUT OMG YOU GET ACCESS TO THE BOSS", it doesn't really fly.

Face it. you would be doing the same thing if you're in the position to.

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

Anyone using bots this early is pretty stupid. You'll get caught and banned and you'll be less than a drop in the ocean.

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Trust me, all you gotta do is feign ignorance and raise a stink over your ban. They'll unban you, you get to keep what you've gained, and as long as you don't do it again you'll be safe.

Call me entitled, call me "cry baby", call me elitist. Call me what you want, it doesn't matter. I'll endure whatever SE wants to do and keep playing. Frankly, I feel the dungeons aren't even innovative (Some ARE fun, don't get me wrong. I quite enjoy Praetorium), and that SE could've done better given how well they did with FFXI's dungeons/end game events.

Don't get me wrong:

I do understand that speed runs CAN ruin the experience for those who are experiencing these storyline dungeons the first time. I absolutely get that and I agree their experience shouldn't be ruined. I feel that everyone should be allowed to experience the cutscene the first time they are in that dungeon. And no, despite that you CAN view the dungeon from the Inn, the experience is still ruined, you get the best experience by witnessing the cutscene while you're part of that game.

I feel that improvements are in order:

1) New players should be able to watch the cutscenes and not have to deal with bitching from players who have done these runs 50+ times.

2) There definitely needs to be incentive to killing these trash mobs. The current 'so called' incentives aren't good enough.

However, I feel that only nerfing speed runs all together without providing incentive to killing trash mobs is not the way to go.

(and I SERIOUSLY hate these 1000 characters limitation in replies!)

Duty Finder

2 options

Story Mode
Normal Mode

Story Mode = Nobody can move if someone is watching cut scene, if the cut scene is roughly 30 seconds and they stay on it for 3 minutes? they get automatically booted (to prevent harassment) this will automatically find a new player. The reason for the boot is simple, some trolls will stay on the cut scene just to grief the players.

Normal Mode = No Cut Scenes

done.

I don't understand the problem so please enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

after all, you 'are supposed' to kill every mobs before getting to boss.

those who don't want to have to kill trash mobs unless necessary, are being accused of "feeling entitled'

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That is exactly what it is.

Boss drops and the tomes are a reward designed to be given after clearing the trash plus boss. If you think you have a right to those rewards without the trash, then you are feeling entitled no less.

You are mistaken in thinking the trash give no benefit. It's just that their benefit are rolled into the boss. This was confirmed by producer Yoshida in his Tokyo Game Show interview. So in the end we'll probably be presented with two choices:

• Speed run and get half the tomes
• Full clear and get the same number of tomes we get now

If you still have a problem with this implementation, then you are feeling entitled.

Server Transfers...That is all.

Not that it's a secret but trash mobs are great for spirit bonding and materia III farming. Unless you get a resist type materia :p Just pretend the materia you get is bonus for killing trash mobs.

Here is a better idea, for each dungeons, give objective list:
- kill x amount number of trash mob (insert name), get 5 tomes philosophy
- kill x amount number of trash mob (insert name), get 5 tomes philosophy
- kill x amount number of trash mob (insert name), get 10 tomes philosophy
- kill x amount number of trash mob (insert name), get 10 tomes philosophy
- kill x amount number of trash mob (insert name), get 15 tomes philosophy
- kill x amount number of trash mob (insert name), get 15 tomes philosophy
- kill x amount number of trash mob (insert name), get 20 tomes philosophy
Completion bonus if there is first time members: 20 tomes of philosophy

Add those in the high end dungeons - and see if people will skip trash mobs, since that effectively DOUBLE the amount of tome you are getting - now those trash mobs are no longer trash but actually reward you with the exact thing you want. Each completed objective also spawn a treasure chests that rewards everyone with 200 gil x objectives, plus random crafting items, materia level 3 and accessories ilevel 55. I guarantee that once you implement this, no one is stupid enough to skip these trash since they essentially more rewards than the actual boss. Plus at the end you get over 1600 gils - enough to cover your repairs.

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Originally Posted by Altheras

cover the repairs from killing them.

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this right here is all i care about. that chance at 1 gil from a mob just doesn't cut it

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Originally Posted by Aphraell

I wonder if they are aware of the 4man groups using teleport hacks to teleport to chest to chest then boss to boss. Skipping trash in its entirety. No idea if there exploiting bosses or killing them normally though. I doubt it.

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They have been well aware of that site for years. Yes ppl have admitted to exploiting bosses. No FC has legitimately beaten Turn 5 coil yet. Its been all exploit or 3rd party program. There are many FCs legitimately trying to clear it for a real world first.

These ppl need to be perma banned, not rolled back, not warned, perma banned. It is that bad atm. Players are teleporting FATEs even as its plainly obvious as Im near one that spawns all the time fishing Silver sharks.

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

How near is the future exactly? Is it like soon(tm) or like less than a week or so from now? because some of these things need to be addressed NOW(gold spammers, certain endgame activities, qol issues that most mmos have off the bat). Especially the gold spam it is completely unacceptable to let so much of it go on for so long. You have the shout channel there for a reason and that is to allow people to ask for help or form groups, as it has been the last few weeks it is 24/7 gold spam where no one can get a word in without the spam of multiple bots in the same second.

Unless that report spam feature in 2.1 will ban these bots after so many reports we should not have to wait till a fix is implemented for this. I have seen bots that have been up a week or more and surely have hundreds of reports, why has nothing been done about these?

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Near to Square-Enix can be about 10 years~

Yesterday I posting " Serious Treat!. To square Enix" related on Bot and Gils Seller but guess what !? They deleted my post! Thank you so much! I even name the bot and mention about there are 48 Blacklisted in my list compare to 8 friend list!! Seriously I tell to you all, I paying monthly subscription because I want to enjoy the game and play with some friend from around world! Not helping SE cleaning sh!t after sh!t due to Gil Seller / Botting!!Seriously I grown tired block and block! I wonder do you(SE) really do your job? YOu should LOCK the character in dungeon till investigation is complete! Remove all if suspected done so. Look at their activity log on how long they been online in server room.
You said to us , you have special Task team to handle this but what I saw is Sell Giller/Bot is start invading your house! Soon, SE will not get a nickle for granny

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

The development team is aware that the benefits for defeating regular monsters in high level dungeons are not proportionate to the effort. They are also aware that dungeon runs can also be filled with players with conflicting goals (like enjoying the story versus doing a farming/speed run) that leads to it being difficult to enjoy the content. They feel that improvements in these areas are needed and are currently working on countermeasures for this.

We will be sure to fill you in on the details in the near future.

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Wow a moderator necroed my old thread!

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Originally Posted by Aphraell

I wonder if they are aware of the 4man groups using teleport hacks to teleport to chest to chest then boss to boss. Skipping trash in its entirety. No idea if there exploiting bosses or killing them normally though. I doubt it.

Here's a nice forum I found on Google advertising LFG to do teleport dungeons:

Removed Link - don't want to be suspended.....

Excerpt : LFG on Faerie - Looking for people on Faerie to start a speed run group for AK or others things using teleport. Send me a pm. I'm a BLM, we'll need a full group and everyone to have teleport so we can just teleport to each boss.

Same forums has multiple teleport hacks, Exp, gathering, Fishing bots.

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No wonder your account was suspended

I imagine much of the gold spam will cease to exist once the free period ends and these scumbags will have to pay subscriptions and give up CC info to continue doing what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by xxSHEPERDxx

I imagine much of the gold spam will cease to exist once the free period ends and these scumbags will have to pay subscriptions and give up CC info to continue doing what they are doing.

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They're way ahead of you though, you think they use their own cc info to pay for subs and the game? Nah they use the players info they hacked or the people who bought gold from them, they don't spend a dime of what they actually make all the while laugh as they milk hacked players dry before they even know what happened.

I can see why people would want trash mobs to drop some kind of useful item or maybe more than the occasional 1 whole whopping gil, but at the same time i'm fine w/ just getting gear from the bosses/tomes in Ak/CM/Praetorium and stuff. Either way as long as the game remains fun i'm not quitting! :D

As far as that argument about DOW/DOM not having a decent way of making $, all I really have to say is there are plenty of monsters that drop useful crafting items out in the world that you can farm while waiting for groups in duty finder or making your own. That's how i've been doing it so far. Or you could always level a craft during downtime. Just my 2 cents.

For me it's about missing excitement. After my 20th keep run... I just don't care about the trash. It's just the same things over and over again. By throwing in some random loot, it breaks up the monotony.

What is the point of a DUNGEON if you do nothing but fight boss after boss? You might as well just make a tunnel of 3-4 rooms all adjacent and have the bosses waiting there for you to walk through the door. o.O

Trash mobs are filler. If raids and dungeons had nothing but bosses, it would be lame as **** and people would start crying with buzz words like "linear".

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Originally Posted by Noata

Wow the entitlement here.... I am struggling to think of a game that actually gave something worht while for trash mobs...

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SWTOR, WoW, TERA, to name a few. They always drop fair amounts of money that builds up, they also don't usually take 2+ minutes per fight to kill.

It goes beyond simple "entitlement", as you so plainly put it. Think about it, how are people actually going to enjoy plowing through the whole two progression dungeons in endgame over and over again if there's no added incentive on the side? It's dull and repetitive, but you may as well to have something to show for all your effort.

Perhaps you enjoy wasting time, and that's your "entitlement", but try not to shove your expectations on others, thx.

Dividing the total loot of a dungeon between mobs and boss would give much more satisfaction than just having to kill mobs in order to get to the boss (therefore making people want to skip them)... Otherwise why would they even be there? If you want to battle just the boss, do a primal fight.

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Originally Posted by Noata

Wow the entitlement here.... I am struggling to think of a game that actually gave something worht while for trash mobs... I mean the whole reason we called them trash mobs... was due to trashy loot. Are you guys serious? I mean I get that you were TOTALLY exploiting the game and they fixed it. They reduced repair costs. so go kill trash mobs. I do not get at all where your coming from

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Um...every game but this one? Rift has trash drops (gold, items to be sold). WoW has patterns, epic items, blue items, items that can be sold for gold, crafting materials, and gold. SWTOR was the same.

The game is fine. Stop being lazy and learn how to make gil. You're not supposed to profit from a dungeon, and the benefit of running one is that you're getting new gear. Is that so hard to wrap your brains around? Or do you feel the need to be handed everything and even some extra gil to make the economy worthless?

Why Cater to Care Bears? I mean this is a game... it is called a DUNGEON for a reason... You go through the whole damn place killing lesser mobs who protect or defend the lesser bosses who then defend the Main boss.... Do you honestly think that to get the best loot at endgame you can just go into a dungeon and face the main boss without facing his army? ARE YOU MENTAL? DO NOT CHANGE A THING FOR THESE CHILDREN WHO JUST WANT EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW AND DO NOT WANT TO LIFT A FINGER TO GET IT!!! The best gear in the game needs to be earned! I am sick and tired of community's moaning and complaining to make things instant! Play for the game for the game or get the F out! Its a game to play for the whole story not just for the loot! ITS NOT ALL ABOUT LOOT! Sure loot is awesome and better gear is also awesome but I mean a lot of people are missing the point to a MMO it is about community and building friendships and enoying the journey... not just the end.

What are you going to do when you have everything? what else is there to do? Just come on the forums and say well that was too easy time to find another game while I wait for a new patch... Come on people grow up and look at the big picture!.

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Originally Posted by Exevos

The game is fine. Stop being lazy and learn how to make gil. You're not supposed to profit from a dungeon, and the benefit of running one is that you're getting new gear. Is that so hard to wrap your brains around? Or do you feel the need to be handed everything and even some extra gil to make the economy worthless?

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The thing is you do make a profit.. you get better gear... But I agree with you

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

What is the point of a DUNGEON if you do nothing but fight boss after boss? You might as well just make a tunnel of 3-4 rooms all adjacent and have the bosses waiting there for you to walk through the door. o.O

Trash mobs are filler. If raids and dungeons had nothing but bosses, it would be lame as **** and people would start crying with buzz words like "linear".

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That's pretty much what the coil is lol

I would suggest Lowering tomes for completing a dungeon by half but at the same time let regular monster drop 1-3 or 4 tomes per monsterkill (either random or higher chance for higher tomes with speedkill or w/e). So everyone would start to clear out instances then.
So this would give a different outcome in tomes and would motivate everyone to give the best....

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

What is the point of a DUNGEON if you do nothing but fight boss after boss? You might as well just make a tunnel of 3-4 rooms all adjacent and have the bosses waiting there for you to walk through the door. o.O

Trash mobs are filler. If raids and dungeons had nothing but bosses, it would be lame as **** and people would start crying with buzz words like "linear".

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Or using buzz words like "Primal Fights"

I agree with the OP, Sorry but that's my opinion, Rewards should equal the risk involved.

I played Guildwars 2 as well and trash have a chance to drop anything, or they did until gold farmers/speed runners exploited them 24/7, which in my eyes shouldn't nerf the rewards should just ban the exploiters instead.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

The development team is aware that the benefits for defeating regular monsters in high level dungeons are not proportionate to the effort. They are also aware that dungeon runs can also be filled with players with conflicting goals (like enjoying the story versus doing a farming/speed run) that leads to it being difficult to enjoy the content. They feel that improvements in these areas are needed and are currently working on countermeasures for this.

We will be sure to fill you in on the details in the near future.

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Use this fix: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1317112

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

What is the point of a DUNGEON if you do nothing but fight boss after boss? You might as well just make a tunnel of 3-4 rooms all adjacent and have the bosses waiting there for you to walk through the door. o.O

Trash mobs are filler. If raids and dungeons had nothing but bosses, it would be lame as **** and people would start crying with buzz words like "linear".

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What, you're saying there is anything not linear in the game at the moment? I struggle to see any non-linearity. Oh, wait, u have that what lvl30 dungeon (idk what level rly, lowbie dung) that you have 1 forking path, omg, the future is here now!

And yeah, if boss fights are designed good, people would perhaps enjoy them. I know I prefer a nice boss fight x100 times that has you engaged in the fight to the kill "mindnumbingly boring easymode trash mobs with 0 benefits or incentives to kill them" x10 times.


So all in all, it's not about entitlement imo, it's about fun.

A wise duck once said "Work smarter, not harder."

This is like saying, the game is bad because when you make a character at the start it's lvl 1, not lvl 50. ;o

The games economy is set up so that you require a crafting or gathering class to support your adventures. Just like in the real world, you have to work hard if you want to play hard.

In one hour of gathering I can make over 10,000 Gil that will supply repairs for days to come given that I'm not dying over and over and over which if that is your problem, change the people you run with, not the entire mechanic of the game.

Should monsters yield more than 1 Gil? Yes. No more than 20-25 Gil is reasonable and even over-rewarding.

Should monsters yield pink or even normal items? No. Monsters in the outside world already drop crafting materials. Dungeon monsters should only drop Gil.

Should monsters drop chests with perhaps rare mats? Maybe, if the drop rate was 0.05%

The game has all you need to sustain yourself. Pick up a crafting or gathering class an your money problems will be a thin of the past.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

That is exactly what it is.

Boss drops and the tomes are a reward designed to be given after clearing the trash plus boss. If you think you have a right to those rewards without the trash, then you are feeling entitled no less.

You are mistaken in thinking the trash give no benefit. It's just that their benefit are rolled into the boss. This was confirmed by producer Yoshida in his Tokyo Game Show interview. So in the end we'll probably be presented with two choices:

• Speed run and get half the tomes
• Full clear and get the same number of tomes we get now

If you still have a problem with this implementation, then you are feeling entitled.

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How many other games have you played where raids that contained mobs that dropped virtually nothing.

I mentioned FFXI's trash mobs earlier, in Dynamis, Limbus and Salvage. Keep that in mind.

Runes of Magic dungeons dropped CRAPTONS of gears and materials, and even recipe, ranging from common to rare, they also dropped medicines as well, and various other items. Most players collect these to make money.

Scarlet Blade dungeons actually had a chance of dropping rare gears (which are very valuable) and items, including stardust gems and slivers. All trash mobs dropped money at least, and occasionally potions and other consumables. In fact, Scarlet Blade (despite how horribly boring and unimaginative their dungeons are), actually gave us a reason to actually WANT to kill their trash mobs.


In fact, now that I think of it. FFXIV has been the only mmorpg that contains trash mobs that drop virtually nothing.

So based on the past experience, are you really going to keep trying to tell me I'm feeling entitled, or am I really driving my point home on how pointless the trash mob killing if there's no benefits out of it, when so many other mmorpgs actually give benefits for killing trash mobs.

And once again, killing trash mobs just to unlock the boss is not a benefit, nor should it be an incentive to kill em in the first place.

Bottomline: I'm not a big fan of speed runs, but I can see why people want to do speed runs. Wanna eliminate this? Give a better reason to kill trash mobs.

Id like to add that this is an issue all MMO's go through according to dev blogs. The battle between giving players what they want and making the game too easy is a never ending one.

This game however has put crafting and gathering to a tier of importance that I love because you can't live without it. This eliminates that battle entirely. Players who want everything given to them easier (pink loot on trash mobs, really? LOL) only serve to make the game boring and less rewarding as a whole. It serves to cater to the casual gamer, who is indefinitely looked down upon by anyone who dedicates themselves to a particular MMORPG (I'm not speaking of hardcore MMO players, I'm speaking of players who enjoy the challenge of a bustling economy where their crafts and materials are worth the time and effort to accumulate).

Please be wise and use what the game has plainly offered to you as a huge advantage: Disciples of The Land and of The Hand.

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Originally Posted by xSinful_Snake

Id like to add that this is an issue all MMO's go through according to dev blogs. The battle between giving players what they want and making the game too easy is a never ending one.

This game however has put crafting and gathering to a tier of importance that I love because you can't live without it. This eliminates that battle entirely. Players who want everything given to them easier (pink loot on trash mobs, really? LOL) only serve to make the game boring and less rewarding as a whole. It serves to cater to the casual gamer, who is indefinitely looked down upon by anyone who dedicates themselves to a particular MMORPG (I'm not speaking of hardcore MMO players, I'm speaking of players who enjoy the challenge of a bustling economy where their crafts and materials are worth the time and effort to accumulate).

Please be wise and use what the game has plainly offered to you as a huge advantage: Disciples of The Land and of The Hand.

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I do agree that crafting and gathering has become very important, and frankly, I feel SE should put more dependency on crafters/gathers than ever. Honestly, one of the biggest pet peeve I have about the quests is that many of them actually give you piece of gears that actually greatly reduce the value of crafters, and the fact that DL and better gears give little to no point in craftable gears (Save Heavy darksteel, Darksteel set, Gryphonskin set, and Vanya set, which most don't bother to do due to how expensive it is to be able to make these).