The Direction of FFXIV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

and how does aggro icons do any of that? oh right it DON'T. You still gotta avoid the stupid stuff and run for you life if you aggro it. Aggro icons do not prevent aggro. Also fyi you know what REALLY made exploring safer chocobo's, sneak spell, sneak oil, invisible spell, invisible powder, a high level escort.

honestly the new icons are pretty tiny. And show level. Almost all rpg have similar stuff.

---

Actually, aggro indicators are pretty crap. If aggro indicators are so ineffective at preventing aggro, why even have them? There are 50 more natural ways to express aggressive monsters without resorting to an eye-sore, experience-depriving, pandering, remedial, bourgeois aggro indicator that every other WoW clone has done to death.

One of the features people have hailed FFXI for is its atmosphere - both social and environmental. Funny that FFXIV had a chance to build upon that but instead chose to throw it all away in favour of a patronising aggro indicator instead.

The introduction of an aggro indicator to Eorzea simplified the monsters into even more generic and immobile creatures than before; creatures which exhibit either A or B behaviour variables. It was bad enough when SE decided to deprive mobs of their specific behaviours (fleeing, following, etc), now they have to throw up warning lights for aggressive mobs too, further decreasing the immersive elements of the ecosystem; further increasing FFXIV's bland environments.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder just how much blander SE can possibly make their game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gifthorse

Hey kitkun, remember how you haven't actually played the game yet? Remember that?

Aggro-indicators deprive new players of meaningful experiences and sustains the complaints of Eorzea being too bland. Far and wide, people have slandered FFXIV for being boring. SE's response was to remove one element where there was a shred of excitement to be had.

---

how? I still gotta learn how to avoid stuff. I still goota learn how they aggro. All i know is they aggro. Which is something i can look up. Oh even better a site can tell me everything I need to know about the mob. Like how it aggros and how to avoid it. I also played a REAL easy mode game.

Sorry but death wastes my time. And if my time is wasted so is my money. The aggro icon is not making me any less scared of dieing from aggro. Its not preventing me from getting aggro.

I don't have a problem with icons if i can toggle them on and off helpful for new players but i like the excitement, i have a problem if they try turn this game into WOW or Aion or whatever other MMO. I like casual but not to the point of switching it off because all i can do is leves and have no content and no story and no quests. I think it should take the good from FFXI keep the bad and make this a game that everyone can enjoy!! I enjoyed the game from Alpha but i have done every leve over and over >.<

Also i was never a elitist on FFXI just because i worked hard and got some really nice gear and soloed/duoed a few jobs to 75 plus and didn't even know who Maat was and called a GM lol those where the fun things, don't tar everyone with same brush.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

how? I still gotta learn how to avoid stuff. I still goota learn how they aggro. All i know is they aggro. Which is something i can look up. Oh even better a site can tell me everything I need to know about the mob. Like how it aggros and how to avoid it. I also played a REAL easy mode game.

Sorry but death wastes my time. And if my time is wasted so is my money. The aggro icon is not making me any less scared of dieing from aggro. Its not preventing me from getting aggro.

---

If you play an MMO because you are concerned with an age old time=money equation, you better change hobbies. The stock market is probably a more fitting endeavour.

all the aggro icon is suppose to do is show you what aggros which again you can look up AND get more info from a site.
I'm saying it don't prevent aggro meaning, the mob can still attack and kill you if your not careful. All you really need to do is learn HOW stuff aggros/ can be avoided. Not if it aggros or not. Your argument don't hold water dude just stop trying. Any agrument you start off with an insult automaticaly becomes invalid. Attack the topic not the poster.

I agree with Lyndis (opening post). I feel the same too, I was really excited during the development stage (alpha and beta) but it kind of left me with a bitter taste after a few months of the release, when the direction was changed... too much from the unique and original idea FFXIV should have been.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gifthorse

If you play an MMO because you are concerned with an age old time=money equation, you better change hobbies. The stock market is probably a more fitting endeavour.

---

and anything you will say after is automatically invalid. Am I insulting you? i'm just attacking what your claiming. Sorry but ppl don;t like their time wasted when playing a game. All a game needs to do is be fun. We don't need games to have pointless "difficaulty" for the sake of it. How is an aggro icon really making exploration easy? does it protect you? does it prevent a mob from attack you? does it give you step by step guide on how to avoid the monster? the answer is no. So you have no valid reason why aggro icon are bad. And from what is being said there is an off switch.

Don;t worry on how other ppl play. Just focus on yourself. If ppl feel the need to have it on to take up less time. So be it, its their choice. It don;t make them bad players, carebears, or anything. Its not making the game easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

I agree with Lyndis (opening post). I feel the same too, I was really excited during the development stage (alpha and beta) but it kind of left me with a bitter taste after a few months of the release, when the direction was changed... too much from the unique and original idea FFXIV should have been.

---

direction was never changed, it was stated by tanaka it was going to be casaual friendly. even befor alpha.

Kilta i am not being funny but you haven't even played the game and some of us have since Alpha so we know what we are on about. I agree with Nakiamiie and feel this game is going in the wrong direction and feeling more and more less like FF.

I want to know why the OP wants 14 to be more like 11 was. granted 11 was fun. I have played it since the PS2 release and was there when things were hard. yet looking at it now after 7 years I can say it wasn't worth it. games are to be part of life not life. I don't want to see 14 become something so hard that it's not worth it.

actually this comic explain all:
http://666kb.com/i/bq7knfluja6gitciu.jpg
it means: every of us played ffxi (the majority at least) and feel extasiated by it, but time and experience pass. The first time have always something better, since mementos made it. you can't re-create that magic in no way

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luluna

Kilta i am not being funny but you haven't even played the game and some of us have since Alpha so we know what we are on about. I agree with Nakiamiie and feel this game is going in the wrong direction and feeling more and more less like FF.

---

I've been keep tabs on the game since i heard about it in 2009. They did said from the star it was going to be a casual friendly, less time consuming game. I recal ppl complaining on fansites how the promise wasn't delivered. Saying the game was made for casuals but nothing but levequests are casual. I do own the game. I see vids. I also play a ton of different games in my spare time. I know alot about what makes a good mmo and a bad one. I've played a good 30+ mmo.
I played ffxi for a year under a 2 hr limit. Honestly i hated it. I nearly quit the game because I had no time to play it. And this was due because i was forced to share my account with my brother who ended up quiting. And we shared our ps2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

actually this comic explain all:
http://666kb.com/i/bq7knfluja6gitciu.jpg
it means: every of us played ffxi (the majority at least) and feel extasiated by it, but time and experience pass. The first time have always something better, since mementos made it. you can't re-create that magic in no way

---

honestly that is so true. i'm rolfmaoing irl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

it means: every of us played ffxi (the majority at least) and feel extasiated by it, but time and experience pass. The first time have always something better, since mementos made it. you can't re-create that magic in no way

---

But but ff7 was so much bettar than anything srsly

honestly... when as a ff game hard? or challening to explore? I beat ff7 in a week. 8 in 2 weeks. 10 in a mnth. x2 in a week. 9 in a mnth. never beat 12 i got bored after i maxed out my character before the first fight. 13 meh, hope annoys me.

honestly ff was never really about exploration or adventure. Most of them consisted of linear maps with random battles. The games I mostly played for exploration were Zelda and mostly elder scrolls. Elder scrolls are the game to do adventuring in. Since that is how you level. Exploration and gaining points in your skills.
Personally i just want a fun game to play. A game that can keep ppl joining all day every day. ppl stop joining ffxi after WoW launched.
I'm not that picky on how the game is. I just want to play and have fun. And other have fun also. Games were never meant to be work, as work is never fun. It is just for entertainment only. If a game isn't entertaining you then don't play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

But but ff7 was so much bettar than anything srsly

---

Zelda ocarina of time was a better game. Most of ff7 was an eye sore. I only played it cuz sephiroth was hot.

Kilta i am not going to get into a argument with you im 39 not 9 and i also have played a lot RPG games and others. I am for casual gamers and for those who want to play more what is wrong with that? and as for you saying FF wasn't about exploring then back in the 90's when most of those earlier FF titles where released i spent hours and hours maxing and exploring....also seeing a video will not give you the experience of actually logging on, when you have played the game then maybe you can see what problems are on the game. I don't play WOW or Aion but i have seen my daughter play Aion i do not go posting and acting like i know everything about a game i have never played.

Isn't it sad that the ideal MMO is now lost? Isn't it sad that all people want nowadays is a compromise on immersion and beauty in favour of efficiency and convenience?

People no longer play games to enjoy the world, but simply digest it as quickly as possible in order to move onto more content and digest that just as quickly. At what point are you even playing a game anymore and at what point are you just juggling numbers like an OCD lunatic?

In my opinion, progress in a game shouldn't be tied strictly to ranking up etc and getting between point A and B in the fastest way. After all, don't people say that the journey is more important than the destination? The more SE simplifies the journey in FFXIV, the more they dilute the importance of the game.

Given the frequency of aetheryte crystals and homepoints in FFXIV and the lack of a death penalty, I dont even see how any death is very meangingful in the first place. So while the Aggro indicator, among other things, destroys the integrity of FFXIV's atmosphere, it also servers little to no purpose anyway, other than to clutter your UI and deprive you of meaningful learning experiences.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

honestly... when as a ff game hard? or challening to explore? I beat ff7 in a week. 8 in 2 weeks. 10 in a mnth. x2 in a week. 9 in a mnth. never beat 12 i got bored after i maxed out my character before the first fight. 13 meh, hope annoys me.

honestly ff was never really about exploration or adventure. Most of them consisted of linear maps with random battles. The games I mostly played for exploration were Zelda and mostly elder scrolls. Elder scrolls are the game to do adventuring in. Since that is how you level. Exploration and gaining points in your skills.
Personally i just want a fun game to play. A game that can keep ppl joining all day every day. ppl stop joining ffxi after WoW launched.
I'm not that picky on how the game is. I just want to play and have fun. And other have fun also. Games were never meant to be work, as work is never fun. It is just for entertainment only. If a game isn't entertaining you then don't play.

---

Did you play FF7 now or when it came out? and yes it does make a big difference when you play it. When i play ps1 game took me days or month to win. I can play it and win any ps1 game i play before or never play before in 1-5+hours.

anyways i can care less how easy ffxiv become as long as they still give us hardcore players something to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luluna

Kilta i am not going to get into a argument with you im 39 not 9 and i also have played a lot RPG games and others. I am for casual gamers and for those who want to play more what is wrong with that? and as for you saying FF wasn't about exploring then back in the 90's when most of those earlier FF titles where released i spent hours and hours maxing and exploring....also seeing a video will not give you the experience of actually logging on, when you have played the game then maybe you can see what problems are on the game. I don't play WOW or Aion but i have seen my daughter play Aion i do not go posting and acting like i know everything about a game i have never played.

---

fyi I'm 26 and what the difference between a video and playing. Pressing buttons... big deal. I know a great deal of ffxiv. But why does my playing or not have to do with aggro icons? can't think of a valid point so you gotta take a jab at me?

I never said I liked the direction mmo are going in. I just choose to accept it. Mostly after i looked back on my early ffxi days and said to myself most of the crap I put up with was so not worth it. The aggro icons don;t do anything to the game in making it easy. It just help ppl a lil to learn what mobs to avoid. There is still danger as you can still get aggro even if you know it does. Knowing what does and don't aggro isn't making the realm less dangerous.
Even if i played ffxi I wouldn't care, i'm not ppl. I'm for anything that will get subs in. ffxi is just about dead. Not because of aby, not because of cop "nerf" but because no one wants to play that type of game anymore.

All this aggro icon hate is unjustified.
If you hate the agro icon but used sneak and invisible stiff in ffxi then your contradicting yourself. Those did make exploration less dangerous. As did chocobo. So really what makes aggro icon such a big deal?

I did not make a jab at you trust me. I also don't just press buttons lol . I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours, it makes the world go round....i have read your other posts in other threads if i got that far and its not just aggro icons i am for them if it helps new players as long as i can turn them off. I just feel if you play the game then you may see things from where we are and how things can and should be fixed. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and i respect that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zenaku

Did you play FF7 now or when it came out? and yes it does make a big difference when you play it. When i play ps1 game took me days or month to win. I can play it and win any ps1 game i play before or never play before in 1-5+hours.

anyways i can care less how easy ffxiv become as long as they still give us hardcore players something to do.

---

when it came out. FF7 wasn't that hard. all you had to do was hit attack and spells >.> or use summons and items. I actually was never a final fantasy fan. Only 1s i like are ff8 ff9 ff11. to me Zelda OoT was more challening. It took me 7 mnths to beat it cuz of a few bosses. That and the dead house dungeon gave me nightmares. i was a lil kid.

honestly you know wat game was REALLY easy mode. silent hill 2 on beginner mode. >.> you don't get attacked or die... just walk around and explore. I personally never really played a game that was "hard".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

I never said I liked the direction mmo are going in. I just choose to accept it. Mostly after i looked back on my early ffxi days and said to myself most of the crap I put up with was so not worth it. The aggro icons don;t do anything to the game in making it easy. It just help ppl a lil to learn what mobs to avoid. There is still danger as you can still get aggro even if you know it does. Knowing what does and don't aggro isn't making the realm less dangerous.
Even if i played ffxi I wouldn't care, i'm not ppl. I'm for anything that will get subs in. ffxi is just about dead. Not because of aby, not because of cop "nerf" but because no one wants to play that type of game anymore.

All this aggro icon hate is unjustified.
If you hate the agro icon but used sneak and invisible stiff in ffxi then your contradicting yourself. Those did make exploration less dangerous. As did chocobo. So really what makes aggro icon such a big deal?

---

The way FFXI treated chocobos as invincible was ridiculous, just because SE was too lazy to introduce mounted combat.

Using invisible and sneak required some kind of neural activity and was itself a tactic used to avoid mobs so it isn't really comparable to aggro indicators which do all the thinking for you. Besides, this isnt an issue of difficulty, its an issue of immersion.

There are ways to make the game easier (using tactics) and still maintaining immersion, and without making it pandering and an eye-sore to look at.

honestly my first Square soft game was chrono cross. then ff8 then ff7. I'm not a ultra mega ff fan I mostly only played ff11 because it was the only console mmo i could play. I'm the only gamer in my family. My parents dislike my gaming saying 1 hr should be enough on an mmo. And trying to explain mmorpg gaming is like talking to a rock.

Personally i think we should stop fighting each other and be more open to anything that can bring in players. Even if ffxiv is fixed if its just a niche game like ffxi it will not last long. We need to bring in more players of various play styles/ levels. If we don't the servers communities will get stale.

so.... sneak and invise which did make exploration less dangerous is ok.
but an icon that is tactical, and dangerous is not ok.
you know ppl used those to not worry about a zone being dangerous. I highly do not think ppl used them in a tactical way. So again what is the issue?

Adding the aggro icons don't make encounters inherently easier. That redhorn ogre is going to murder you whether you know if it's aggressive or not, or what level it is. It's also no different than looking it up online or asking someone. You didn't know and now you do. All the icons do is make information more readily available. Why do people feel so threatened by information displays?

Right now I think there is clear lack of Direction coming from Yoshi-p, he seems more interested in appeasing the fans then coming up with idea's of his own.

He really needs to come out and tell us what he has planed with the game, good or bad.

I couldn't care less about the Aggro icon, its small fry especially when looking at the vast problems this game has right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinko

He really needs to come out and tell us what he has planed with the game, good or bad.

---

I hear he is going to rehaul the combat and class systems, implement jumping and an AH as well as implement instances in the next few months.

Of course this is only hearsay and there is nothing official said, as he has not even told us anything since January in his letters that do not exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

I hear he is going to rehaul the combat and class systems, implement jumping and an AH as well as implement instances in the next few months.

Of course this is only hearsay and there is nothing official said, as he has not even told us anything since January in his letters that do not exist.

---

All he does is pick up on what he thinks people want and then he implements that. It isn't a clear direction. I want to know what the big picture is.

We need to know where they intend to take the game as opposed to simply how, if that makes sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

Games were never meant to be work, as work is never fun.

---

You must work at McDonalds or something; I know plenty of people who enjoy their jobs :)

On topic though; I agree with Peregrine. It's just the fact that these aggro icon's exist that is a warning sign. Regardless of if the info is available on the interwebs or not, the fact that they are putting it in game is worrisome to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gifthorse

All he does is pick up on what he thinks people want and then he implements that. It isn't a clear direction. I want to know what the big picture is.

---

And what does this mean in practice?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jibe

You must work at McDonalds or something; I know plenty of people who enjoy their jobs :)

On topic though; I agree with Peregrine. It's just the fact that these aggro icon's exist that is a warning sign. Regardless of if the info is available on the interwebs or not, the fact that they are putting it in game is worrisome to me.

---

nope but I said work not a job. I enjoy my job, I don;t see it as work. Big difference. if SE isn't gonna add it addons will. honestly you prpb getting an off button with the chamge, least that what ppl are saying. Who cares who uses it or not. that don't effect you. Just turn it off and wash your hands of it.

I just don't see how the addition of a small 2 value information display is worrisome.

Without aggro indicator: I walk past/around something and get aggro and die. Next time, I know the monster is aggressive and avoid it.
With aggro indicator: I know the monster is aggressive and avoid it.

All that changed is I missed the trial/error death portion. Once you know something once, the sense of adventure is gone. There is no mystery.

Another example:

Without aggro indicator:

Adventurer 1 "Hey is that monster aggressive?"
Adventurer 2 "Yeah, avoid it"

and they avoid the monster.

With aggro indicator: They avoid the monster.

Oh man, there was SO much immersion and adventure in that first example!

I think alot of people are missing or refusing to see the point Peregrine and others are making.

That point is this: Just the FACT of adding in icons for aggro and other things that dumb the game down is an indicator of where this game is going and it is making alot of people worried. It makes no difference if you can turn it off and "wash your hands of it", the fact is it says something about what kind of game SE wants to make this just by adding it in, and alot of people here do not want a game like that. Because most of the people who are regular posters on these forums are hardcore players (barring Kilta foghlada who has never played), and hardcore players don't like to see a game dumbed down.

I'm sure every single one of the people who are coming out against the aggro icon will turn it off and "wash their hands of it" (or quit the game), but that doesn't mean they have to like it; or like what it says about SE for implementing it.

Honestly if you quit the game over the addition of a 2 value information display, I'm not sure how much longer you would have stayed.

I really don't see it "dumbing down" the game. It's a convenient information display that shows specific information about a monster.

Actually I think a decent compromise would be this:

Aggro display: Data is acquired after encountering this monster and triggering the response, or not, at least once.

Level display: Data is acquired after fighting the monster (pass or fail) at least once.

Still have the option to toggle it on or off. That way you'll only have the info for monsters you've encountered/fought before. Maybe take it a step further and say the data is only acquired after defeating the monster once.

Also there is still a bit of mystery left in the game with the aggro indicators. Take Efts for instance, they operate on sound aggro because if you turn off run you can walk right by them without any problems (outside of a small range). Also within a certain range any action that makes a sound will make them "look" at you (such as pulling your weapon out). The sense of tension and suspense can still exist if you know the specific ways to get around a monster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jibe

I think alot of people are missing or refusing to see the point Peregrine and others are making.

---

People get the point -- However the way Peregrine states it is too condescending and full of pomposity therefore people skim over it but will agree with others because it's presented better. People are just way too damn serious about a video game, as said, don't like the icon? Turn it off when the toggle is implemented however new MMOs and some older ones implement mob levels and colored names to display aggressive and relative toughness on if you can grind on them or not, so it's not as if this is some new phenomenon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jibe

I think alot of people are missing or refusing to see the point Peregrine and others are making.

That point is this: Just the FACT of adding in icons for aggro and other things that dumb the game down is an indicator of where this game is going and it is making alot of people worried. It makes no difference if you can turn it off and "wash your hands of it", the fact is it says something about what kind of game SE wants to make this just by adding it in, and alot of people here do not want a game like that. Because most of the people who are regular posters on these forums are hardcore players (barring Kilta foghlada who has never played), and hardcore players don't like to see a game dumbed down.

I'm sure every single one of the people who are coming out against the aggro icon will turn it off and "wash their hands of it" (or quit the game), but that doesn't mean they have to like it; or like what it says about SE for implementing it.

---

Well ya know casual players have a right to play this game as well, hardcore players are becoming less and less catered too in almost every game including mmo's, its just something we all have to live with.

Am I the only one that just finds the icons ugly? I couldn't care less about the casual/hardcore arguments (as amusing as it is) I just think adding candy coated gingerbread icons to everything looks dumb. As long as I can turn the feature off, I'm a happy camper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

There's a reason why no one commented on your post. No one liked your ideas.

---

This 100%.............