Red Mage idea

That's an interesting theory Alerith and might be one worth exploring. I might do another buildup in my spare time with that hierarchy. (Although I'd probably use original WS's)

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Originally Posted by Alerith

As there needs to be obvious drawbacks that keep a single job from being overpowered, doing combos like this would either have to have a fair recast timer depending on how powerful your spells got, or they would have to chew through MP.

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Another option to consider is spell damage caps and scaling. A RDM's spells are obviously going to be weaker than a BLM's version of the same spells. I'm iffy on recasts and mana costs because I'm not too keen on dead periods, which are expected of a dedicated caster but not from someone in the front lines. Going OOM due to carelessness is different from going OOM by design, after all.

They need to give Blms complete elemental magic before a blended malee mage, so doubtful you will see rdm havign access to all those spells. It need to focus on the weapon side enhancement, not mage style nuking.

Luckily BLM is beign fully balanced in ARR (tests shown them casting aeroga and others).

DOn't want to great offset blm/thm casting, but a job who uses magic to inhance it's weapon, and weaken the mob, or enahncign players in malee in turn

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Originally Posted by kazaran

Luckily BLM is beign fully balanced in ARR (tests shown them casting aeroga and others).

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where have you seen this please?

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Originally Posted by kazaran

They need to give Blms complete elemental magic before a blended malee mage, so doubtful you will see rdm havign access to all those spells. It need to focus on the weapon side enhancement, not mage style nuking.

Luckily BLM is beign fully balanced in ARR (tests shown them casting aeroga and others).

DOn't want to great offset blm/thm casting, but a job who uses magic to inhance it's weapon, and weaken the mob, or enahncign players in malee in turn

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Umm no its not like red mage would be able to use them all at once anyways. You would have to select which element you want to use situationally, otherwise your probably gonna be strapped with cure/stoneskin/raise/sacred prism.

Where did Black Mage cast Aeroga? Pretty sure they aren't going THAT deep into revisions.

I also want to address the fact of en-spells. So your telling me we have to make an ability for each element? Why do that when we could just give Red Mage "enchant" and after your next cast of one of the elemental magics your weapon becomes enchanted with that property.

I'm sayin theres no way a Red Mage could possibly 'offset' black mage's nuking with just tier 1 spells. There is also little merit in it's enfeebling/enhancing capabilities if we are looking at a CNJ/THM sub. Stop trying to make red mage out to a team enfeebler/enhancer that is XI thinking. Enfeebles and enhancements are marginal at best. Everything on Red Mage is marginal at best, that's what makes it what it is.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

Stop trying to make red mage out to a team enfeebler/enhancer that is XI thinking. Enfeebles and enhancements are marginal at best. Everything on Red Mage is marginal at best, that's what makes it what it is.

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Agreed, the Enfeebler/Enhancer could work in a way, but there's no way in hell FFXI's RDM would work in this game. TBH they'll have to do to RDM what they did with BLU and actually combine the two elements instead of keeping RDM's magic and melee worlds apart.

Idk I dont think its that hard. Red mage would get elemental enhancements, enfeebles, debuffs, and melee skills. They'd also either get spells unique to red mage, or the low-level THM spells. Naturally they'd get low level CNJ spells too that we all have access to. RDM should not be a dps class, but a support dps class. You support while providing decent dmg to the mob you're fighting. Its basically the same role as Bard is currently. Bard your primary job is to support your team through songs and debuffs from combos...as well as AoE support. Damage is NOT the name of the game. And the same will be true of RDM.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Damage is NOT the name of the game.

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It is and has always been. Everything else is incidental and flavor. The idea you're pushing for has fallen flat on its face at least twice in the last 8 years or so. Don't really know why you'd want to push for something that has been known to fail.

PS: Please stop bunching up RDM with Bard.

That is unfortunately the case. If it's not DPS it's not worth ****. All jobs must be top notch DPS in order to have any place in a party. PLD must parse with MNK, BRD must parse with BLM, WHM must parse with DRG (at all times in all circumstances). If a job is not doing sufficient DPS then the player isn't playing it right and should be immediately kicked from the group. There is no place in this game for slackers who can't keep up their damage. And no whining about things like hate or cures or any other bs like that, you don't need cures if the mob is dead, just zerg it down as fast as possible that's basic tactics.

Therefore RDM also can't be anything but a pure DPS job. It should have all elemental nukes at all tiers in order to keep up with BLM. It should dual wield rapiers and attack at high speed to keep up with MNK, and their en-spells should shoot out fire and lightning from their swords, dealing aoe damage to all nearby enemies to keep up with DRG. RDM should also have all levels of cure and they need to be instant cast to keep from interfering with their meleeing. And they should have a spell like phalanx in XI except more powerful to absorb all the damage they will take from all the enemies they will aggro to keep up with WAR.

You see, it's all about balance, Red Mage just needs to be balanced equally against all other jobs in the game and it will succeed.

Laying it on pretty thick this time since my previous joke fell flat, so I hope someone gets a laugh out of it.

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Originally Posted by Eremor

PLD must parse with MNK, BRD must parse with BLM, WHM must parse with DRG (at all times in all circumstances).

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Your joking aside, class balance should aim to have tanks performing as close to as possible to equal with other tanks, same thing for DPS, and same thing for healers. PLD, WAR, BST and SAM (adding the last two for good measure) should perform within the same parameters as they're all tanks. If WAR is better, or SAM has higher DPS, then you lead to things like the community taking the "best" of the four and kicking everyone else to the curb.

DPS is also notorious for suffering from this problem. If BLM outshines everyone, then everyone will just stack BLMs and kick everyone else to the curb.

As far as how this applies to RDM...I've mentioned it before, but RDM would be a lot better off if we had talent trees for the hybrids so that if you want to spam cures and refresh you can, if you want to front line and use your sword you can, and so on. We don't have that and never will because of the armoury system's restrictions. On a personal level, I therefore support the RDM's gameplay being built around the rapier with magic (attack and utility) supplementing that part of the design. The job can and should still have some form of heals and nukes (as the job has always been sword, white magic, black magic), but within a focused role that makes sense for the job's concept and aesthetic.

You can't do a strict 3-way split between sword, white magic, and black magic because that's how the first draft of XI's RDM was designed, and it had to be changed because few could find a use for the job. Sadly, XI's developers chose to go the support-bot/cure-bot route.

You and I differ on one key issue though. You seem to see RDM as a DPS role job, with melee attacks and elemental magic damage. Whereas I would like RDM to be a melee support role job.

In my RDM fantasy world, the Red Mage is up there on the front lines, swinging a magically enhanced sword and casting spells that exploit the enemy's weakness. Debuffing to render them vulnerable to a coordinated attack by the rest of the party, and casting buffs to cover an ally's weakness. When the **** hits the fan, I want to be able to step up and say 'I got this', with a variety of abilities available to counter un-forseen situations.

And most importantly, at the end of the run, when whoever is parsing puts those numbers into the chatlog, I want everyone to say 'Wow, look how much damage the RDM did.' NOT because the damage is anywhere near that of the DPS jobs, but because the RDM is so valuable to the party in every other way that no one even expects them to do any damage at all.

But of course that is all just fantasy and I know that ultimately I'll have to settle for something less, I just pray that it will not be another DPS clone who's only on the front lines because there weren't enough people with BLM leveled in the party.

DPS is not the only name of the game. Support plays a hudge roll.

Having all classes DPS is rediculous and broken.

Having RDMs or any class out DPS a blm is also rediculous. They have other tasks at hand.

You wnat nukes, cures, then see the RDM's in the back once again.

THe best hoice is malee enhancements and balance. The orginal purpose. Not what XI made it. Your blade up front will be your primary weapon. then magical defense/absorbtion, and enhancements.

THM can already tier nuke, don't need rdm for that. THey can offset cure if geared. Don't need RDM for that.

Enfeebs, enhancements and moderate malee with that.

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Originally Posted by Eremor

You and I differ on one key issue though. You seem to see RDM as a DPS role job, with melee attacks and elemental magic damage. Whereas I would like RDM to be a melee support role job.

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Not really. I see RDM more like a melee DPS job with utility rolled in.

My vision of the RDM would be a guy using fencing skills combined with magic, using their sword to land the debuffs, with perhaps some spells that toy with enemy weaknesses. RDM's version of elemental spells would deal reduced damage with a long cast time if hard-casted, but are instant cast, deal more damage and cost less MP if used while under the effect of the proc Combat Caster. Combat Caster also allows your next Cure to be instant cast, allowing them to help the healers in a pinch without the risk of being burdened with the healer's job. As long as buffs are not intrusive, they could also have buffs that would increase raid performance.

still liek to see them have abilties like dancer had on XI with mp drain (gives to party members) and hp drain, and other enahncements while engaged, no nukes jsut bad ass blading with magic enhancements

I figured it out, screw it. Rdm will have gun-blades and musketeers with have rapiers!

You want to be a Musketeer, level up your Gunner class... You want to be a Red Mage, level up your fencer class! FINAL!!

But wait, I see something special about these seemingly look alike classes, they can duel-wield! Cool huh!?

The 3rd and final "new job" could be Blue mage. They can originate from grid. Rdm can spring from Uldah.