Demiatma drop rates are unacceptable

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Originally Posted by Arongar

I've grinded for several relics in the past, and while there was a grind I never felt like I was truly wasting my time. It's different this time around. Maybe I just got lucky in the past.

I don't see a world where SE tested how it "Feels" to grind demiatma. I've spent roughly 7 hours grinding fates between zones and have gotten ZERO drops. My time is too valuable for this shit.

I don't expect everything to be "handed" to me, but I want my time to be valued. At this point there needs to be some sort of pity system. Maybe for every fate you do, and don't get a demiatma, increase the drop rate? I'm not sure what the best solution is, all I do know is...I'm skipping this relic. I was so excited for a new relic. To finally have a new chase in the game, but this is just awful. So disappointing. It's like SE has not learned anything in 10+ years of development. It's no wonder why players have been bailing on this game lately. Soon, I might be joining them.

I just don't feel like this game is for me anymore.

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Well, aren't you happy because the relics aren't casual enough? Like Endwalker, where it was a gift.

Relics have to be earned, at least back in the days of ARR to SB or so. Now any casual can finish it. It used to take several weeks of farming for 1 relic.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Well, aren't you happy because the relics aren't casual enough? Like Endwalker, where it was a gift.

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I mean, now it's a gift too. Gift with extra step.

But you know why it is like this? Because of the community and lack of engaging content. SHB relics required more grind than this, but now they are frustrating (personally even more than ARR) because they are tied to the duties people don't do - Delubrum Reginae or Dalriada. I'd love to get SHB relics but DR is a miserable the last time i tried. I don't like tombstones sinks in current expansion (afterwards, free game for me it's not like you gonna waste your time on ARR relic as soon as you to lvl 50 on a job that actually has it)

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Relics have to be earned, at least back in the days of ARR to SB or so. Now any casual can finish it. It used to take several weeks of farming for 1 relic.

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This might be a controversial take but relics are for casuals. They never require something as crazy that a casual with enough time couldn't do. which is also reflected in ilvl - outside of last step it's not even that good of a weapon. Surely not something a hardcore player has much use of. But even if it were, is it really fair that one person finishes in a day and someone else has to grind for countless hours? That's the problem most have. How unfair the drop rate is. I would be fine grinding even 100 of each atma if i knew there is at least a pity system in place eg 5000 silver pieces per atma or just guaranteed drop every 10 CE/fate.

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Originally Posted by IdleBlood

I dont think the rates are that bad, or maybe I had luck, got the relic on the 2nd/3rd day of release, and I didnt feel the grind was tough. I could prefered to wait a bit more, I just have now my 5th relic since after first one is tomestones, that is really boring only collect heliometrics now.

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The drop rates are rng and are not the same for everyone I have over 100 hours at it in open world fates and OC Fates /CE and I only have a single Demiatma to show for it. On the opposite i have nearly all the job stones for the Phantom Jobs as well as enough Upgrade material to max out the ilvl745 OC Gear. I am not even at Knowledge level 20 I think I am at 8 or 9. The issue is the inconsistency!

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Originally Posted by virianna

This might be a controversial take but relics are for casuals.

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I think you guys are running into the issue of using different definition of "casual", I feel you mean "casual" as in someone who doesn't raid, but may be willing to commit to playing for like 8+ hours in one sitting assuming they have a day off, which may be what is needed to finish the relic when it is most relevant rather than just "eventually", while Naoki is using a more extreme meaning of casual, to mean someone who primarily does MSQ and low-commitment content like normal raids and Allied Society quests, and otherwise logs in to (E)RP and hang out, or at least something along those lines.

Assuming I am correct in that read, and I could be very wrong, then I'd say then yes, relics are for someone like you meant, which every Relic bar one has been, but not for someone like Naoki meant, which the EW Relics were.

This isn't even hard, just implement a pity system and all the RNG grief goes away.
Do it for the job stones, too. Jesus christ. 2 weeks and still no zerker jobstone drop. Are you kidding me.

After doing this for almost 2 weeks, it's pretty clear that the droprate from CEs is 20% and the droprate from FATEs is 5%. We are way beyond the margin of error now. The droprate from CEs is more than 3 times higher than FATEs and it's not even close.

The main issue is really that there are some areas in OC that only have 1 CE. Despite how much Atma I have, I have no Orpiment, because it's just FATEs, a pot FATE or 2 very rarely spawned CEs. I think there is one of them I have never seen actually.

I've been farming since it dropped. Finally got my 6th one only to find out I need 3 of each. For something NOT best in slot. I don't mind a grind but a couple hours a night for weeks us unacceptable

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

After doing this for almost 2 weeks, it's pretty clear that the droprate from CEs is 20% and the droprate from FATEs is 5%. We are way beyond the margin of error now. The droprate from CEs is more than 3 times higher than FATEs and it's not even close.

The main issue is really that there are some areas in OC that only have 1 CE. Despite how much Atma I have, I have no Orpiment, because it's just FATEs, a pot FATE or 2 very rarely spawned CEs. I think there is one of them I have never seen actually.

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P(drop) = 1-((1-p)^n), where p is the average drop rate and n is the number of times you've rolled. (Multiply the statistics from FATEs and CEs before subtracting the result from 1 to get the aggregate.)

While p is higher for CEs than FATEs, the fact they take longer and spawn less frequently about evens out. From what I've observed instances of OC cycle CEs (and maybe FATEs) before stopping admission to new players and letting the instance die. While CEs have a higher p value, the fact you can raise n faster by doing overworld FATEs means if you're trying to get a specific color it's more efficient to roll the dice time and again outside of OC than waiting or hoping for one you need (or a CE) inside.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

I think you guys are running into the issue of using different definition of "casual", I feel you mean "casual" as in someone who doesn't raid, but may be willing to commit to playing for like 8+ hours in one sitting assuming they have a day off, which may be what is needed to finish the relic when it is most relevant rather than just "eventually", while Naoki is using a more extreme meaning of casual, to mean someone who primarily does MSQ and low-commitment content like normal raids and Allied Society quests, and otherwise logs in to (E)RP and hang out, or at least something along those lines.

Assuming I am correct in that read, and I could be very wrong, then I'd say then yes, relics are for someone like you meant, which every Relic bar one has been, but not for someone like Naoki meant, which the EW Relics were.

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Well yes and no. In my mind someone who primarily do MSQ will not bother even with something as easy as EW relic, but what i meant mostly was that a suggestion of what naoki said “now every casual can finish a relic” always was in place. Sure if someone plays mega casually it would take them months to finish one, but NO relics so far had a horrible blocker that would be a hard stop for someone who mostly does MSQ- there is no savage-like fight attached to a relic, solo instances no hard requirement to have gatherers or crafters on certain level because they are a must for a NONTRADABLE item, or some other crazy requirement. Even OC has a ilvl requirement of 700 which is literally a bare minimum and even an MSQ only person is meeting (otherwise no story dungeons)
So yes even the most casual of them all can and always could finish a relic even if their primary activity is AFK in limsa - their willingness is a different story but the same can be said about 8h a day hardcore person, they may grind all relics all day but will never touch pvp or Allied Society quests.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

After doing this for almost 2 weeks, it's pretty clear that the droprate from CEs is 20% and the droprate from FATEs is 5%. We are way beyond the margin of error now. The droprate from CEs is more than 3 times higher than FATEs and it's not even close.

The main issue is really that there are some areas in OC that only have 1 CE. Despite how much Atma I have, I have no Orpiment, because it's just FATEs, a pot FATE or 2 very rarely spawned CEs. I think there is one of them I have never seen actually.

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Exactly i have no verigris or w/e it is 3 of the six are done but the fact remains some areas only have one or two ce unlike BOZJA which had multiple areas for the drops god. Did they learn nothing from eureka or bojza???? The drop rate for everything is atrocious. Still waiting for oracle and ranger drops. Berzerker has dropped twice. Forked tower is damm mess from what i have heard. Do you really have to put two mounts for the savage 48s or w/e. I still have not done BA or savage DR. I don't want to delevel or lose mettle at least you don't delevel in bozja.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

you are not supposed to farm fates for them, go to OC and only if you are missing one or two get the rest from fates.
I would honestly say the droprate inside oC is ... 'fine' but the problem is that they are zone specific drops, so i got 12 orange and only one purple atma. at the end

if you still need bicolored gemstones, thats also a good oportunity for farm these and do the relic.

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Instead of following the train round, kill the mobs and spawn the fates/CE in the area you need. We was killing 4-5 of 1 mob then moving on to the next and they were spawning fast in that area. https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...nt:_South_Horn mobs at the bottom

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Originally Posted by -Diversion-

What is ridiculous is that virdigris has only one fate, so far drop rate is not bad around 20% but if you consider the probability of a probabilty since you can't exchange the surplus stones for what you need, i'd say in the end to get 3 of each is pretty sad and repetitive grind, that 20% becomes less than 5% to get what you actually miss, even by doing everything that spawn in the map.

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It has 3 FATES Sworn to soil , A delicate Balance, Pleading Pots and from Calamity Bound CE.

Grow a back bone and just get it done.. I got mine done in no time and I have a job

Got 3 demiatma from each of 5 of the 6 zones so far. But for some reason Shaaloani has taken it upon itself to be the bane of my existence. Have now done 76 straight fates there (ranking the zone up from absolute zero to max rank 4 - plus an additional 10 fates on top of that) - and not a single demiatma from that zone had dropped for me. So when people say it's just a case of mathematical probability and the more you do, the likelier it is you'll get them - I can honestly respond with "Meh - kinda nope."

What a surprise you pushing your false narrative again without acknowledging all the facts like in this case it is the fact of random chance. Where you yourself claim to have a 20% drop rate though when we look at thread you made https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...Farming-Method

Its shows your drop rates per different OC CE/Fates from as low as 4.37% to as high as 25% based on Limited sample data. For me for example in 100+ hours I have 1 Demiatma, with a mixture in Both OC and open world but on other hand i have 45 Aether Spun Gold and 27 X-Fixatives. it just proves how inconsistantly bad the RNG is on this content. No you have to be disingenuous with you claims from insufficient sample data!

Added info: I got my sole drop on open World DT fate so based on that singular drop I would have to say open world will be less then 1% and for OC it would be 0%. It also is a bit unusual how the drops occur were in open world if you group up or if any others are at the same fate your chances drop even more. You can say that might be RNG or there maybe an underlined, issue for how the drops are happening in DT Fates. Same could be said for OC drops and chest rewards while my Atma drops have been awful, but I have gotten very lucky with the Phantom Job stones (I only need 1 more to have all those Job stones), and the gear upgrade drops were as others are not as lucky.

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Originally Posted by NoctotheBard

Got 3 demiatma from each of 5 of the 6 zones so far. But for some reason Shaaloani has taken it upon itself to be the bane of my existence. Have now done 76 straight fates there (ranking the zone up from absolute zero to max rank 4 - plus an additional 10 fates on top of that) - and not a single demiatma from that zone had dropped for me. So when people say it's just a case of mathematical probability and the more you do, the likelier it is you'll get them - I can honestly respond with "Meh - kinda nope."

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It took me about 70 fates to get 2 of the Koakazuma atmas, and 80 for the 2 yellow ones (Living memories). It goes without saying that, i got both areas maxed thanks to fates. I went through several CEs and Fates on OC to get barely anything from those two, while i had 4-5 of the other candies.

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Originally Posted by Miguel85NYC

Grow a back bone and just get it done.. I got mine done in no time and I have a job

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While you got yours done so efficiently (Or so you claim), and despite your disingenuous comment others will have to contend with the bad RNG and not be so Lucky.

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Originally Posted by Jestigeress

What a surprise you pushing your false narrative again

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I assume you're referring to me. It's not a false narrative. It's beyond doubt now. Even linear regression supports that the drop rates are higher than you believe - because I put the amount of FATEs/CEs for each drop in an excel table to see.
https://i.imgur.com/8p3sgRU.png

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For me for example in 100+ hours I have 1 Demiatma, with a mixture in Both OC and open world

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I struggle to believe that you have spent 100 hours in there and only got 1 Atma, unless you didn't do much in there or only did FATEs. I literally get an Atma every 3-5 CEs, in most cases, every single day I'm in there. I don't think any of the other responders in that post said they only got 1, and usually that was in way less time than you've spent. And a lot of the comments agreed the drops were better from CEs.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I assume you're referring to me. It's not a false narrative. It's beyond doubt now. Even linear regression supports that the drop rates are higher than you believe - because I put the amount of FATEs/CEs for each drop in an excel table to see.
https://i.imgur.com/8p3sgRU.png
I struggle to believe that you have spent 100 hours in there and only got 1 Atma, unless you didn't do much in there or only did FATEs. I literally get an Atma every 3-5 CEs, in most cases, every single day I'm in there. I don't think any of the other responders in that post said they only got 1, and usually that was in way less time than you've spent. And a lot of the comments agreed the drops were better from CEs.

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Just because you have ignorance over the matter you continue to be disingenuous with your claims and often you let your own prejudiced bias cloud your judgement. Which is reflective in limited sample data which isn't enough to support the conclusion that demiatma's are at 20% drop rate it only supports the fact that those with better rng will have a drop rate above 5%-20%... Just because you have better luck in Atma drops means only that you have better Luck on those drops. Plain truth it isn't enough to support your conclusion. It's also deceptive and ignorant to think that what the Lucky drops you a few others have gotten is reflective of what the actual stats of the drops are, because again it is a limited sample size.

You may disagree with the experiences i have had which is also reflective in the data you collected which still doesn't account for outliers that have said they are not getting the same drops as you. It is very deceptive to ignore those with lower drops to just support your false claim. All that is reflective of is your bad science and weak hypothesis.

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Originally Posted by Jestigeress

Just because you have ignorance over the matter you continue to be disingenuous with your claims and often you let your own prejudiced bias cloud your judgement. Which is reflective in limited sample data which isn't enough to support the conclusion that demiatma's are at 20% drop rate it only supports the fact that those with better rng will have a drop rate above 5%-20%... Just because you have better luck in Atma drops means only that you have better Luck on those drops. Plain truth it isn't enough to support your conclusion. It's also deceptive and ignorant to think that what the Lucky drops you a few others have gotten is reflective of what the actual stats of the drops are, because again it is a limited sample size.

You may disagree with the experiences i have had which is also reflective in the data you collected which still doesn't account for outliers that have said they are not getting the same drops as you. It is very deceptive to ignore those with lower drops to just support your false claim. All that is reflective of is your bad science and weak hypothesis.

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You didn't spend 100 hours in South Horn and just getting 1, that is misinformation.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

You didn't spend 100 hours in South Horn and just getting 1, that is misinformation.

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My exact words were this ... "For me for example in 100+ hours I have 1 Demiatma, with a mixture in Both OC and open world"

I can understand you wanting to be disingenuous and take my words out of context... but I never said I spent 100 hours in OC.

I also said this "Added info: I got my sole drop on open World DT fate so based on that singular drop I would have to say open world will be less then 1% and for OC it would be 0%. It also is a bit unusual how the drops occur were in open world if you group up or if any others are at the same fate your chances drop even more. You can say that might be RNG or there maybe an underlined, issue for how the drops are happening in DT Fates. Same could be said for OC drops and chest rewards while my Atma drops have been awful, but I have gotten very lucky with the Phantom Job stones (I only need 1 more to have all those Job stones), and the gear upgrade drops were as others are not as lucky."

I have only spent at most 30 hours out of 100 + in OC while I did not get one Atma I gotten 50 Aether Spun Gold, and 30 X-Fixatives and all but one of the Job Stones... but that is just my RNG and that can be different for many players in there

I have spent all of the time in OC so far, I haven't done any outside FATEs.

I have completed 111 FATEs and 64 CEs, 175 events in total.

In that time, I have acquired:
1 x Verdigris,
1 x Azurite
2 x Malachite
2 x Realgar
2 x Orpiment
2 x Caput Mortuum

That's a total of 10 Demiatma so far.

The drop rate here for me, based on the above is 17.5%.

That's not a bad drop rate at all, in my opinion.
I'm not actively grinding for the relic, it's a passive grind whilst I level the Phantom jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jestigeress

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Imagine playing for 10 hours nearly every day just grinding fates lol. Maybe this is why you feel frustrated. Do like 2-3 hours per day, you won't burnout that fast.

30 hours in OC and not a single atma? Mhm 'kay.

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Originally Posted by Asako

Drop rates are fine. I got over 7 of each just levelling to 20 and my jobs.

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No they are not fine, you'r an exception, I get less than the half required will having lvl 20 and 5 mastered phantom jobs

I finished my relic in a little under 20 hours, so it was 7 hours shorter than it took me to do the original atmas when they launched and well under the time most other relic steps took when they were new too.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Imagine playing for 10 hours nearly every day just grinding fates lol. Maybe this is why you feel frustrated. Do like 2-3 hours per day, you won't burnout that fast.

30 hours in OC and not a single atma? Mhm 'kay.

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I wondered when I get your questionable response, welcome to the thread...
Yes 30 hours and I should be at Knowledge Level 20 but I decided to self rez a bit to often early on and ended only at 9 during the start.

I also see you Like making a bunch of unfounded assumptions and are fairly condescending, interesting...
I never said I was burned out , or really frustrated My only real complaint about the relic was inconsistent RNG of the relic drops
Were in contrast I have had high drops in the Phantom Job Stones (45% average drop chance from CE), Aether Spun Gold (55% average drop chance from CE and chests), and even X-Fixative (100% Drop chance from Silver chests).

Now I am not saying all that to boast or anything of that nature just pointing out its inconsistency of the RNG being used.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

You didn't spend 100 hours in South Horn and just getting 1, that is misinformation.

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It's mathematically possible. Probable? I'll let you do the precise math and set your thresholds I guess.

Frankly put: this is shitty and lazy game design.
Throwing unmitigated RNG at things and just telling unlucky players to: "suck it up, buttercup" is asinine and should not exist in a videogame we play for FUN and ENTERTAINMENT in our sparse free time.

At the very least, there should be a pity / bad-luck protection system that basically caps the maximum player effort needed at an amount determined by the Developers.

If someone really spent 7hrs of doing FATEs w/o a drop (this is possible, I just spent 3 hours and got one lousy drop, guess I should consider myself lucky) then this content is BROKEN. Extrapolating: 3*18 = 54hr or 2.25 DAYS of continuous grind of the most braindead content this game has to offer while watching movies on the side. All that for a lame item level you will instantly replace with the tome weapon anyway. Talk about not respecting a player's time investment.

On top of that, they force us to use level 100 jobs inside the new map, so you can't even level other jobs while farming these braindead FATEs/CE's.

TL,DR: if you value your time, wait till they nerf this nonsense when they release later relic steps.

TBH, my worst streak was approx 4 hours in OC and outside in DT area for atma, but I did it over a few days, so I just went to bed and hoped for a better tomorrow.

Now I'm finished, I wouldn't mind if they buffed the atma rates everywhere for everyone else, still working on it now, or new players in the future to help them out.

The biggest issue is needing 3 of every type of Demiatma... Rather than just forcing us to grind 18 of them with questionable odds, you need to get 6 sets of 3 with absolutely horrible rates.

To be honest, i maxed out now 7 Jobs and im still missing 3 Atmas, so im not a huge fan of the Droprate BUT since its a 1time step and not required for every Relic im fine with it, thats how Relics should be, the one time step should be a pain in the ass and take a while (after all what the next step comes in how many months 5?) while the step to aquire the weapon then is a tomestone thing, i kinda like it it involves both worlds easy tomestones and hard grind

I would like atmas to continue dropping as an alternative to paying tomes for subsequent penumbral relics. Maybe requiring just one of each; rowena is bound to be able to sell them. They’re fun, I get an extra incentive to do fates waiting on roulette queues, and as these relics have achievements tied to them that can be used as a check to close the tap when all are acquired.

After way too much grinding, I finally got Demiatmas...
https://i.ibb.co/8g04L0Cp/demiatmas.png
And this is why needing 6 sets of them is a terrible design choice which isn't helped at all by not being able to force certain FATEs and CEs to spawn... Just have to sort of hope you even get a chance to get to roll on the RNG...

The "it's only been X days since the update's release" responses don't make much sense. It's a broad generalization that lacks the necessary nuance. It's easy to say "it's only been a week", but if someone has farmed twelve hours a day for seven days straight and only has a single Demiatma to show for it then it's not difficult to understand why they might be frustrated and how demoralizing it can be when you realize you need to collect seventeen more.

I've spent several hundred hours playing Fates on OC and still don't have all the crystals for a relic weapon...
Especially for the "Malachite Demiatma," it took me more than 80 hours to get one...

https://mitsukemashita.tokyo/atma.png

I wish they had a system where you could trade atma for atma you need. Certainly not at 1 to 1 since that'd just be too easy, but hell even a 3 to 1 ratio would be preferrable to me just accumulating atma I don't even need while the one I need refuses to show up after countless hours of farming fates/CEs.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

I wish they had a system where you could trade atma for atma you need. Certainly not at 1 to 1 since that'd just be too easy, but hell even a 3 to 1 ratio would be preferrable to me just accumulating atma I don't even need while the one I need refuses to show up after countless hours of farming fates/CEs.

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Why would 1:1 be too easy, LOL. You still need to contend with the RNG of getting 18 drops total.
People need to realize that this is only the first step of the relics with "bleh" item level to boot.

Being this grindy for the first step is just way overkill.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Why would 1:1 be too easy, LOL.

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Because it would ruin the point of having multiple Atmas to begin with, which is to give each different region and CE different values for each player, otherwise people would just never attempt to spawn Calamity Bound past their first story-mandated one, or they'd just go to Heritage Found/Living Memory where they don't need to be sync'd down and is a lot easier as a result of iLvl creep, since FATEs are tuned to a 690 and lower iLvl. Video game players, especially MMO players, need restrictions, or they will always take the path of least resistance and then complain about the path offering very little resistance.

Level to knowledge 20, then finish off whatever remaining you have with shared fates. Bi-Color gemstones maintain good value with rewards, so at minimum you'll make some decent gil marketboarding something you don't care about. You'll speed up your grind considerably doing it this way I promise.

Also currently Yak'Tel still has instances, which is very relevant when green are the lowest drop rate inside OC.

The funny thing is all they had to do to fix it was make multiple fates spawn at the same time in oc so you could go to the ones you needed. It would also improve the monotony that is the run the only fate, return, and repeat gameplay. Like at least give us a choice se.