7.0 Graphic Update - Elezen feedback

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GalaFrost

I know it's a century year old argument at this point, but I'd really love to see some skeleton fix for Elezen with the graphical update. Reducing shoulder and neck width while increasing overall headsize just a little would work wonders. I'm fully aware Elezen aren't supposed to have human proportions, but that does not mean they should look "off".

---

Making a different decision at the initial design stage and changing that decision now are two very different matters, as this whole business is proving.

At this point, Elezen are lanky and relatively small-headed because they are tall overall. Changing it is what would make our existing characters look off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Those changes are propably bugfixes due wrong normal maps for Elezen faces. Normal maps are used for structure simulation. I guess, the players got used to the wrong normal maps or built their character around them. And with the fixes their character looks different. And yes, it happens relatively often, that players start to like some bugs in games if the bugs stay long enough.



Cheers

---

Some of them are 100% just normal map updates. I know because I purposefully chose rounded features but they still had shadows regardless of the actual shape of my face. A problem like this is lose-lose situation because they were absolutely incorrect. Retaining the feel of these parts and resculpting all of the options is probably beyond the scope of their original idea and probably can't be saved before DT.

Some parts are completely changed. The biggest offender is the thicker lips people have been posting about. These drastic differences that really can't be disputed by anyone should get first priority even if the rest of the perceived changes have to wait however long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Making a different decision at the initial design stage and changing that decision now are two very different matters, as this whole business is proving.

At this point, Elezen are lanky and relatively small-headed because they are tall overall. Changing it is what would make our existing characters look off.

---

Right. I'm talking about small fixes however, not drastic changes that would make our characters look like Hyurs. Still, there's the fact that we remain one of the least played races due to most glams not working for us and several people stating that Elezen females look "weird".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GalaFrost

Right. I'm talking about small fixes however, not drastic changes that would make our characters look like Hyurs. Still, there's the fact that we remain one of the least played races due to most glams not working for us and several people stating that Elezen females look "weird".

---

It doesn't matter if we're one of the least played races. Elezen will never overtake the Viera/Cat/Lizard/Lala/Hyur no matter what they do unless they make them generic elves. Look how many people beg for Hyur with pointy ears.

A lot of Elezen players like how we look and frankly, it's not our fault that people cannot make good looking glams. All gear looks good on Elezen if you know how to dress yourself.

My elezen looks..... okay (not necessarily better but I can cope) but my biggest complaint is actually the inverse of what my issue is with my main character (a roe).
I've found that my elezen's signature "raccoon eyes" are significantly lighter.. (As a result of the changed lighting) They look so much less devious :(

I also miss the static eye shiny but biggest complaint on my Elezen specifically is the eyeshadow facepaint I gave them is way too light now (it is on the darkest colour on the dark setting!)
https://file.garden/ZeirVMipelQtyM9h/elezen.png

I've been taking more screenshots tonight and I'll try to get those sorted out tomorrow, but one thing that particularly stood out to me is the lack of detail on a scar.

Specifically I've got a face #2 male Duskwight using the left cheek scar. The current version looks like it has depth to it while being a similar colour to the rest of his face, but the benchmark version just looks like a dark line painted on the surface with no texture to it at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

So to summarise most of the problems I've seen here and around the boards for Elezen so far:

• Faces are too rounded and have lost definition of chins and cheekbones
• Darker skin tones look waxy and strange
• Duskwood have been drawn using Wildwood face textures, giving them dark eye circles that they didn't have before
• Some lips have completely changed shape
• Some lips have been turned up at the corners creating a 'smiling' effect that wasn't there before
• Some lips have an odd stripe of light added above them
• Some noses have been made straighter, narrower and less pointy
• Some eyes have changed shape
• Lack of eye highlights is causing a dead look in the eyes
• Eyelashes are longer and thicker, changing the visible shape of eyes and also contributing to the dead eye look by covering any highlights that may be there
• Facial expressions and 'feeling' of many characters have changed significantly due to these changes in features

---

Also add in that eyebrow shapes have been completely changed for some. I've seen at least 3 now where the eyebrow shape is completely different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Those changes are propably bugfixes due wrong normal maps for Elezen faces. Normal maps are used for structure simulation. I guess, the players got used to the wrong normal maps or built their character around them. And with the fixes their character looks different. And yes, it happens relatively often, that players start to like some bugs in games if the bugs stay long enough.



Cheers

---

Then they should update the normal maps to reflect the structures they have been showing until now. It doesn't matter if it's a bugfix. The facial features have been visually changed to the point where characters don't look like themselves anymore.

I'm generally happy with how my elezen looks. I love his pale gold eyes, but with current graphics the lightness does have the unfortunate effect of making him look a bit absent, so I'm glad the update has given them life.

Admittedly, his lips have a noticeably different shape, but I think I prefer it that way. That said, I can understand being put off by that sort of the change.

https://i.imgur.com/om3Xywv.png

One thing that does bother me is the eyebrows have a strange shape now. Before they had a very smooth curvature, but now they look oddly bumpy toward the outer part of the brow.

Also I notice that his face mark looks more washed out. I've noticed this sort of thing with any sort of dark marking on characters like hellsguard noses. I'd like it if they returned the boldness to these sorts of dark-colored marks.

Last thing, with the update his beard looks sparser in places. Especially on the sides of the chin you can see more of his skin underneath making it look patchy. I think it could use less transparency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

Then they should update the normal maps to reflect the structures they have been showing until now. It doesn't matter if it's a bugfix. The facial features have been visually changed to the point where characters don't look like themselves anymore.

---

I doubt, that they will re-implement very old bugs.




Cheers

Alright, my turn !

< ENDWALKER LEFT | DT BENCHMARK RIGHT >

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...ality=lossless
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...ality=lossless
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...ality=lossless
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...166&height=676

Overall, the result is a mixed bag, but mostly positive. Here are the elements that called to my attention the most :

EYES :
Actually pretty happy about the changes to the shape of this set of eyes. They were the most innocent but also "out of place" looking so that's why I picked them initially, but now they are more in line with the other designs and it makes him look more mature like the rest.

HOWEVER, he's a duskwight, and now he has dark circles under his eyes ?? No can do ! I took a duskwight face specifically to avoid those dark circles... !

The new eyebrows make all the elezens look angy or evil now, help- And I've seen some who have lost their eyebrow identity... It's not all bad, but for the most detailed ones to lose their identity is a shame for sure.

HAIR :
The hair seems to have lost some shine in parts and gained in others, and the new hair shader doesn't make it look like hair. Idk, I'm gonna be real, it looks kind of "cheap"... The previous hair had more definition somehow, albeit not always lighted correctly. Something about the previous shader made it shine more like actual hair strands ?

I also find the coloring much less saturated in the benchmark version that the previous one (except for the secondary hair strands coloring which in turn looks extra saturated in some places), and seems to go in line with people's observations so far.

SKIN TONE :
The model seems to gorge itself with a tad too much lighting which makes it glow and wash out the shadows in high lighting areas. The problem also subsides in low lighting (e.g. first pic) as expected of SSS, so there might be some tuning to do ? I'm a BIG fan of the reddish ear tips, of course ♥

TL;DR : Nice eyes upgrade, but please, NOT the dark circles under his eyes ! :( Also eyebrows, varied lighting and coloring "issues"

Thought I'd add my Elezen to the dedicated thread. I'm happy wth the update, but I feel like some of the gormlessness (which came from him being half lalafell) is lost

https://i.imgur.com/ZBUvULP.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/ZjP4D5N.jpeg

Already posted my main in the thread, but here's the changes on an elezen alt.

Her hair is pretty much ruined, the shine is gone.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/398b259e...5386fdc2ae.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rty4E7l.png

Here to add onto the pile of things likely already said. I've tried to sit on them for a few days and see how I felt about it honestly, and I just can't get them out of my mind. Like many others, I expected to fiddle with a few changes in regards to skintone etc being that this is the first time in 10 years changes this drastic have occurred. HOWEVER..

Here is a side profile view comparison:

https://imgur.com/kvbApDA.png

- it seems like the color of the hair has been somehow washed out and isn't as vibrant. Idk if it is an effect of the new lighting or what but it seems dull.

- The ear has been adjusted and reshapened to be more rounded, but for ear 3 it feels as if this has shortened them quite a bit.

- The nose has also been rounded off as many others have stated for their faces and I can't say I'm a fan of it..

- Why did they reshape the ear clasp so drastically?

Front views:

https://imgur.com/B1HxN8q.png

- Lack of eyelashes from a certain distance and creepy listless eyes.

- The lipstick looks like it was applied using a rubber stamp instead of being like.. actual real lips with highlights.

- Like the profile view, I'm not pleased with how washed out the colors feel. Even the eyebrows look faded and muddled compared to current graphics. Which is strange because the irises are so detailed and crisp comparatively.

ALSO has anyone mentioned the texture on the racial starter gear for F Elezen? Like.. somehow it feels like it's worse?? It looks like it can't decide if it wanted to be hd or not and somehow got stuck at halfway. I'd like to hope it isn't the final product because WHEW. :confused:

https://imgur.com/9sB280d.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Larirawiel

I doubt, that they will re-implement very old bugs.

---

This is something I've been grappling with over the last few days. Are we really meant to think that hooked noses, strong profiles, smaller almond eyes, and full lips were "mistakes?" If so, I'm not sure why they let people build characters with those mistakes for ten years. A lot of people held onto those features as the only crumbs that allowed us to make ethnically diverse characters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by decomposer

This is something I've been grappling with over the last few days. Are we really meant to think that hooked noses, strong profiles, smaller almond eyes, and full lips were "mistakes?"

---

Jepp. There is a nice documentary on YT how ARR was made. They took literary every shortcut, they could to finish ARR as fast as possible. With the graphical update, they fix some defect things.



Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Larirawiel

I doubt, that they will re-implement very old bugs.




Cheers

---

Now you're just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Of course I'm not arguing to reintroduce bugs, it's ludicrous that you would even assume that.

Plainly, if a facial feature ends up looking differently than you intended due to a bug, and you plan to update that feature after 10 years of people creating characters with it while promising to preserve the original look of characters as much as possible, you should rework that feature so that the updated, unbugged version still reflects the actual way it has always looked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Jepp. There is a nice documentary on YT how ARR was made. They took literary every shortcut, they could to finish ARR as fast as possible. With the graphical update, they fix some defect things.



Cheers

---

The normal map might not have been perfect and got remade, but 3D shapes are not bugs. The sculpting of the face was intentional for 1.0, and it is intentional for 7.0 too.
The changes hurt the character creation range we used to have, and are the opposite of what they said they were trying to do; staying faithful. This is not something that needed to be lost to fix the bugs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

Plainly, if a facial feature ends up looking differently than you intended due to a bug, and you plan to update that feature after 10 years of people creating characters with it while promising to preserve the original look of characters as much as possible, you should rework that feature so that the updated, unbugged version still reflects the actual way it has always looked.

---

Yes, it happens, that the players start to like some bugs or not intended behavior of a game. It was the same in WoW. Blizzard assigned an incorrect sound to a warrior ability. Later, they fixed it and the players were upset because they liked the wrong sound. This is more a philosophical question: is a bug really a bug if people like it and it does not disrupt the game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorefiend

The normal map might not have been perfect and got remade, but 3D shapes are not bugs. The sculpting of the face was intentional for 1.0, and it is intentional for 7.0 too.
The changes hurt the character creation range we used to have, and are the opposite of what they said they were trying to do; staying faithful. This is not something that needed to be lost to fix the bugs.

---

Yes, they altered also some other aspects of the face. Because they increased the polygon count of it. And more polygons look different than less polygons. The eyes also look different because the anime-like white dot is gone.



Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Yes, they altered also some other aspects of the face. Because they increased the polygon count of it. And more polygons look different than less polygons. The eyes also look different because the anime-like white dot is gone.

---

You can use more polygons to build the same shape with more detail, or a different shape. They did the latter, and that is the issue people are having; they are getting a different result instead of an improved version of the old one. I hope you can understand this part so we can all understand each other.

I've gone through every post and compiled them all into categories. Will update the first post with links to these. (Need to split up into separate posts because of length)

Faces are too rounded and smooth, and have lost definition of chins and cheekbones. Wrinkles have also been smoothed out too much. (Part 1, too many links)
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8
Example 9
Example 10

Faces are too rounded and smooth, and have lost definition of chins and cheekbones. Wrinkles have also been smoothed out too much. (Part 2, too many links)
Example 11
Example 12
Example 13
Example 14
Example 15
Example 16
Example 17
Example 18
Example 19
Example 20
Example 21
Example 22
Example 23
Example 24
Example 25
Example 26
Example 27

Hair colour has been washed out and becauase of this, some original colours are unable to be replicated now. Some hair colours have also been strangely darkened.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8
Example 9
Example 10

Hair has lost its shine, looks more flat.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Some hairstyles are no longer 'fitted' to the face, causing clipping issues.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5

Some hairstyles are completely broken, or have strange shadows.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Strange lighter-toned highlights that look like tinsel visible on some hairstyles, especially with darker hair.
Example 1
Example 2

Some eyebrow shapes changed, either in shape or thickness, which makes the 'feeling' of a character massively different. Some of the new eyebrows make the character look more aggressive or angry rather than gentle, friendly, kind, solemn, or thoughtful. Others have weird smudges underneath them.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8
Example 9
Example 10
Example 11
Example 12
Example 13
Example 14
Example 15
Example 16
Example 17
Example 18
Compliation of all eyebrows on face 4
Example 19
Example 20
Example 21
Example 22
Example 23

Some eyebrows look faded.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7

Duskwight drawn using Wildwood face textures, giving them dark eye circles that they didn't have before.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example of Wildwood vs Duskwight in 6.58
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8
Example 9
Example 10
Example 11
Example 12
Example 13
Example 14
Example 15
Example 16
Example 17

Wildwood dark eyecircles decreased.
Example 1

Lack of eye highlights and/or eyes now having pupils that are too dark at the top is causing a dead look in the eyes. It also makes the eyes look half close and lidded, which impacts the character's neutral expression significantly.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8
Example 9
Example 10
Example 11
Example 12
Example 13
Example 14
Example 15

Eyelashes are longer and thicker, changing the visible shape of eyes and also contributing to the dead eye look by covering any highlights that may be there. Eyelashes also seem to pop in and out of existence depending on distance of camera to the face.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8

Some eyes have changed shape.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7

Texture issues in eyelid region (very visible during blink).
Example 1

Some noses have been made straighter, narrower, less pointy, or otherwise had their shape changed drastically (bridge bump removed etc). Others have become rounded and softer.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8
Example 9
Example 10
Example 11
Example 12
Example 13

Some lips have been turned up at the corners creating a 'smiling' effect that wasn't there before. Others had corners of the lips faded away, changing the expression.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8
Example 9
Example 10
Example 11

Some lips have completely changed shape.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8
Example 9
Example 10
Example 11
Example 12
Example 13
Example 14
Example 15
Example 16

Lips have a harsh line now, are less blended.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Flat colour of the lips it makes the lips look painted on rather than full, like before. Lips lost their shine. Also 'light' lipstick doesn't exist anymore.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7

However some are happy with lipstick colour coming through better.
Example 1

Some lips have an odd stripe of light added above or below them, creating a 'milk moustache' effect.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5

Female elezen's mouth animations seems to be broken, with the bottom lip curving upward unnaturally in emotes.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8

Ear 3 seems to be smaller than before.
Example 1
Example 2

Translucent ears do not match the colour of the skin, staying a bright peach/pink no matter what. They seem to be only tuned for lighter, warmer skin tones.
Example 1
Example 2

Ears are too different. Some are fatter and rounder. Strange crease at the back of ears.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

However, for skin tones that match (lighter, warmer skin tones), overall most seem to enjoy the translucent ears.
(Not listing specific posts because there are many)

Skin looks strangely shiny, like wax. This is especially noticeable in darker skin tones, with some lighting situations making the skin appear as if wet or glossy.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7

Skin tone has changed significantly for some characters with no way to update it to match the original, especially for duskwight.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7

Skin looks oddly mottled.
Example 1

Skin is now unnaturally one-toned and more lacking in natural hue variation of living skin, e.g. eyelids are no longer pinker.
Example 1
Example 2

Light makeup is barely noticeable now, and dark makeup is too heavy. Eyeshadow behaves differently, which is outlined in a post here.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4

Facepaint seems to look low res or washed out. Female duskwight facepaint, especially when darkened, show a strange visual bug.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Lack of details on scars make them look more like a dark line painted on rather than a scar.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Eyebrow paint no longer sits on the eyebrows.
Example 1

Facial expressions and 'feeling' of many characters have changed significantly due to these changes in features.
(this has been mentioned across the board)

Earclasps shape and colour has changed drastically.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5

Beards are less thick and have obvious mesh holes where they are not even touching the face.
Example 1
Example 2

Dirty texture on female elezen starting clothes, and left thumb mysteriously blackened. Racial starter gear low rez.
Example 1
Example 2

Updated the first post with the compiled feedback. Will be updating the links in each category as feedback comes in.