Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrasieArk

So like you know how a tank of water works? Like you our water into it and it gradually fills up right?

Zodiark was a very big bottle of Water that the Ancients needed to fill very quickly. Ergo sacrifices instant water instant filled tank.

In theory you could fill up that tank at a slower pace and still end up with the same result. I know you have a habit of arguing in bad faith but that's a pretty straight forward idea.

---

I'm not 'bad faith arguing', and in jumping in with that right away you're clearly showing that you're not really coming into this in good faith yourself; you just want to come in with a cheap gotcha. But I can tell you why this is, at best, a bad idea:

'Consumption of ambient aether' has been an actual raised crisis point for primals three different times: Ramuh, Alexander, and Eureka. On top of that, overconsumption of the land's aether was the cause of the Sixth Umbral Calamity, the flood that ended the War of the Magi. Draining the world dry like that causes a complete wasteland like we saw from The Burn, itself a non-primal instance of overconsumption of ambient aether, from when the Allagans launched Azys Lla. So far from being a completley harmless thing you could do, a primal is capable of rendering the land a barren wasteland just by being summoned. We even have some general indications of how much aether that takes; the Students of Baldesion theorized that Eureka could've drained the entire planet by just recreating the Mothercrystal--and as deeply-connected Sharlayans we can reason that they probably had accurate measurements of how big the Mothercrystal is. But perhaps even more damning: Alexander was capable of being a Calamity-level threat just by consuming the aether needed to walk. So no, I don't think Zodiark could be made by doing that without causing just irreversible harm.

But your argument is that if we just do that slowly it'll be fine. That they just siphon off tiny little bits of aether until they have all they need. Honestly, in this context I'm not sure that works; first of all it seems to presume that there's a constant supply of aether coming to the star somehow, maybe like how Earth gets energy from the sun, but I'm not entirely confident that's how it works. In fact, my counterargument would be The Burn: if there were a constant supply of aether enough to replace a Zodiark's worth of ambient aether, I think the Burn would show signs of recovery, and it doesn't.

But even putting aside the plausibility of the plan itself, there's another problem: you seem to be naturally assuming that they have a lot of time. And honestly, I don't think they have that much: the only indications of time having passed is that Fandaniel was now in the seat, and that later on Venat had recruited twelve friends. There's no indication of aging, natural death, or of changing life circumstances; the descriptions of the Twelve's predecessors sounded like people who knew each other as a snapshot, not over a long period or perhaps even that well. Menphina was young, you'd expect an over-time description would mention her growth. I've always gotten the idea that they had about a year or so. Not nearly enough time for them to have initiated and compelted a public works project so slow that it needs to be outpaced by natural regrowth.


EDIT: Had another part to this, but I was thrown off by ambiguous terms; Iscah's got the better explanation on this one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

---

Maybe because those consequences existed more in the Source/Shards where there was far less aether to spare? The Unsundered World had exponentially more aether between the aether pools of the Ancients themselves, [which remember, shield created prior to the Final Days reaching Amaurot means having significantly more of them around. ] and the well of aether of the world itself. No where near the concern of say. . .a Primal on the Source. Also, because they #1 did not know what they were dealing with until crap was too late [Because, ya know, they got lied to by the person you seem to have a thing for.] and #2 by the time they did know all the aether they had left to work with was themselves. You also seem to forget Zodiark provided a shield that last 12k years even ssundered and unmantled and likely would have protected Eitherys for many thousands of years more if we hadn't been forced to put Zodiark down

Quote:

---

Where I draw criticism in the "Message is a Bottle" route is that there isnt a scenario where someone finds that message whilst the WoL isnt it Elpis. Like even as of the current patch the WoL can still actively travel back and forth to Elpis however any effect on the future only happens when the WoL is present (The Athena Saga has many examples of this).

---

Once the congruence has happened, there is really no worry of us getting stuck even if we do happen to be there running fates/cleaning up the monster prison/etc when it happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrasieArk

Because for example Asphodelus didn't appear in the Sundered World until the WoL defeated Hephaistos even though time logic says it should've been there.

---

We didn't change the timeline and make Pandæmonium appear in the aetherial sea as if it had always been there; Athena deliberately made it appear there at that point by ripping a chunk out of Azys Lla, reshaping it into a copy of Pandæmonium and teleporting it into the place where it appeared.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redheadturk

Maybe because those consequences existed more in the Source/Shards where there was far less aether to spare? The Unsundered World had exponentially more aether between the aether pools of the Ancients themselves, [which remember, shield created prior to the Final Days reaching Amaurot means having significantly more of them around. ] and the well of aether of the world itself. No where near the concern of say. . .a Primal on the Source. Also, because they #1 did not know what they were dealing with until crap was too late [Because, ya know, they got lied to by the person you seem to have a thing for.] and #2 by the time they did know all the aether they had left to work with was themselves. You also seem to forget Zodiark provided a shield that last 12k years even ssundered and unmantled and likely would have protected Eitherys for many thousands of years more if we hadn't been forced to put Zodiark down

---

I'm sorry, but none of these arguments really explain why the Ancient world just... didn't do, or ever bring up, the approach that had no downside whatsoever.

If this theory was plausible but just not on the table for time constraints from not knowing, then one of Elidibus, Emet-Selch or Lahabrea would've been mad when they posthumously learned they weren't given the info. They were not; Emet directly agreed that Venat made the right call, and Lahabrea just knows he'd do the same thing all over again. (Elidibus avoids the subject, probably because Lahabrea already talked about it.)

But there's that Venat element again: Venat has this information. If there was enough time and resources to make a Zodiark out of dirt, she and her crew would've known; that's especially thanks to the existence of Thaliak's predecessor, the head of Akadaemia and general Knower of Things. We all know Lahabrea can keep a secret and is willing to do shadowy stuff for what's right, so you could get him secretly on-side for the construction, and you can probably get Fandaniel on side as long as you avoid the M word; in fact, I'd even argue that if this were viable, it'd be a really good outlet for him.

So the fact that she didn't do it, and that none of the post-death Ascians begrudged her for that, suggests that 'Zodiark out of ambient aether' doesn't work. Perhaps it wasn't possible in the time they had; perhaps it wasn't possible at all; or perhaps, a society that was deeply invested in enriching their planet didn't want to lop off a chunk of it until they were a couple mass sacrifices in and their priorities shifted.


Honestly, I think your problem on this--I find it a little ironic that I'm saying this to you--is that you need to give the Ancients more credit. The Ancients were flawed, and their fall was tied to that fact, but 'stupidity' wasn't one of their flaws. They're a society that can think their way around so many problems, and both sides of the eventual conflict had their best and brightest focused on it. Do you really think that, if there was a better solution, they wouldn't have found and tried it? Most of those best and brightest had thousands of immortal years to stare at the aftermath of the problem; don't you think that, if there was a better way that was this supposedly easy and effective, they'd be cursing fate for not giving them the chance to try?

Venat intentionally didn't tell them for one reason: She was idealogically driven. She wanted to fix what wasn't broken until Hermes got a hair up his arse in the first place. So even if she had known such was possible, she wouldn't have told them anyway because she believed they needed to change when really, they didn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redheadturk

Venat intentionally didn't tell them for one reason: She was idealogically driven. She wanted to fix what wasn't broken until Hermes got a hair up his arse in the first place. So even if she had known such was possible, she wouldn't have told them anyway because she believed they needed to change when really, they didn't.

---

Riiiiiiiiight. And Thaliak? Menphina, Azeyma? The Watcher? All those bright sparks, in highly respected positions in Ancient society, were they also 'ideologically driven', or were they somehow too dim to ask questions, but not so dim as to work on Venat's solution? Your image of your beloved Ancient society is one that can apparently get swayed pretty hard by what you seem to think is an ideologue with nothing but selfish delusions of power.

You really don't think the Ancients are better than that as a people?

EDIT: And this still doesn't explain why the unsundered weren't mad at her after learning the truth. Surely, if Venat were a selfish shallow ideologue, Emet would've been so mat at her for ruining the perfect future the Ancients could've had without her, instead of begrudgingly respecting that she made the right calls. Or is your image of Emet also too dim to realize, even if given perfect hindsight?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'm not 'bad faith arguing', and in jumping in with that right away you're clearly showing that you're not really coming into this in good faith yourself; you just want to come in with a cheap gotcha. But I can tell you why this is, at best, a bad idea:
.

---

When it comes to the topic of the Ancients you absolutely are. However are we just going to ignore that all your examples happen in a Sundered World (AKA a Shard of 7/13ths) and in the Unsundered world we are playing by a different set of rules? Ancients don't have the restrictions in Aether like the Sundered.

In our timeline after the initial Final days killed a good portion of the Star and the Ancient people. Following that with an ever smaller population pool they managed to get more uses out of Zodiark with just their sacrifices alone no Ambient Aether required. So unless my math ain't mathing anymore I don't see why they wouldn't have an issue taking Aether from a much larger population of Ancients without requiring their bodies and souls. Call it an Aether Blood drive and take a small bit from the Star symbolism and what not.

Also your doing it again in response to Redheadturk. Bad faith arguments Tsk tsk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redheadturk

Once the congruence has happened, there is really no worry of us getting stuck even if we do happen to be there running fates/cleaning up the monster prison/etc when it happens.

---

Then allow me to elaborate and please correct me if I'm veering into the realm of Head cannon. In the case of Graha Tia being unable to return to the Alternate 8UC timeline I've always been lead to believe he became stranded because of the appearance of The CT in the First. This event so dramatic fundamentally changed the course of history that it brought us to our current time line.

My logic here is if lets say the WoL leaves some Hypothetical form of irrefutable proof that fundamentally changes the history of that world wouldn't they be stuck the same way as Graha?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

EDIT: And this still doesn't explain why the unsundered weren't mad at her after learning the truth. Surely, if Venat were a selfish shallow ideologue, Emet would've been so mat at her for ruining the perfect future the Ancients could've had without her, instead of begrudgingly respecting that she made the right calls. Or is your image of Emet also too dim to realize, even if given perfect hindsight?

---

Because the writers took both of the remaining Unsundered utterly out of character so Yoshi P could prop up his waifu because he could not deal with her looking bad. In a real life situation not tainted by dev fiat they would have been furious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrasieArk

When it comes to the topic of the Ancients you absolutely are. However are we just going to ignore that all your examples happen in a Sundered World (AKA a Shard of 7/13ths) and in the Unsundered world we are playing by a different set of rules? Ancients don't have the restrictions in Aether like the Sundered.

In our timeline after the initial Final days killed a good portion of the Star and the Ancient people. Following that with an ever smaller population pool they managed to get more uses out of Zodiark with just their sacrifices alone no Ambient Aether required. So unless my math ain't mathing anymore I don't see why they wouldn't have an issue taking Aether from a much larger population of Ancients without requiring their bodies and souls. Call it an Aether Blood drive and take a small bit from the Star symbolism and what not.

Also your doing it again in response to Redheadturk. Bad faith arguments Tsk tsk



Then allow me to elaborate and please correct me if I'm veering into the realm of Head cannon. In the case of Graha Tia being unable to return to the Alternate 8UC timeline I've always been lead to believe he became stranded because of the appearance of The CT in the First. This event so dramatic fundamentally changed the course of history that it brought us to our current time line.

My logic here is if lets say the WoL leaves some Hypothetical form of irrefutable proof that fundamentally changes the history of that world wouldn't they be stuck the same way as Graha?

---

Not if they are already back in their own time. Can't strand what's not there, and the congruence deals with the hypothetical spanner in the works nicely because we would only be traveling back for fates/etc along our own timeline, not the altered one. As to G'raha, big difference there [and why he got stranded] is the measures he had to take to correct the timeline dealt with much more than just information. He had to be there with his team for 100 years and tie himself to the tower to effect the necessary change. All we have to do is leave some info behind before we go back to our own time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

We didn't change the timeline and make Pandæmonium appear in the aetherial sea as if it had always been there; Athena deliberately made it appear there at that point by ripping a chunk out of Azys Lla, reshaping it into a copy of Pandæmonium and teleporting it into the place where it appeared.

---

Ah gotcha Its been a while so I probably memory holed this Thank you for the clarification.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Riiiiiiiiight. And Thaliak? Menphina, Azeyma? The Watcher? All those bright sparks, in highly respected positions in Ancient society, were they also 'ideologically driven', or were they somehow too dim to ask questions, but not so dim as to work on Venat's solution? Your image of your beloved Ancient society is one that can apparently get swayed pretty hard by what you seem to think is an ideologue with nothing but selfish delusions of power.

You really don't think the Ancients are better than that as a people?

EDIT: And this still doesn't explain why the unsundered weren't mad at her after learning the truth. Surely, if Venat were a selfish shallow ideologue, Emet would've been so mat at her for ruining the perfect future the Ancients could've had without her, instead of begrudgingly respecting that she made the right calls. Or is your image of Emet also too dim to realize, even if given perfect hindsight?

---

I had to look for the quest as I was almost certain The Watcher stated none of them knew her intentions and sure enough he did in the level 84 quest Heart of the Matter(https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/L..._of_the_Matter):

The Watcher:
That flower... How came it into your possession?
How very like Her.
Guided by its light, you may come to know Her true intentions. Intentions which remain a mystery even to us.
In our time, we called it "Elpis"... You would do well to remember the name.

That to me implies none of her followers knew the truth. Apologies I have been lurking in this topic for quite some time and wanted to just note this.

Edit: If you can provide anything to counter this I will gladly take it but it has been my impression she never told her followers the truth of the matter.

Edit again: I knew I saw this elsewhere, the short story A Friendship of Record also backs she didn't tell them the truth.

"Unable to find the words, the archivist retreated into ritual. He held out a crystal—as he had countless times before—upon which was stored the last chapter of cosmological wisdom Venat had sought. Though she had spoken of its importance, he suspected she withheld the entire truth. Of her glimpse into the future, she had offered precious little."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Would you prefer I say 'domino effect'? Because the point I was making was that in the context of stopping the Ancients from falling apart, you can't do a direct problem-solve if you're starting after the Metia have left; there is no means to do so. This is even true for Venat, who had a wealth of social resources available to her and knowledge of the society she's going to use them in. It's even more true for the WoL, who in this context is a weak idiot with no friends. (That last part's a big problem, because the WoL's ostensible greatest strength is having a lot of those.) This is even a thing you yourself agree on, because your own plan still starts before that point.

---

Me espousing a possible solution that happens to take place before the events of Elpis is more of a convenience than me agreeing it is the only way. Within the realm of fiction and headcanons, you can devise a solution really at any given point inside of the timeline prior to the Sundering. I chose prior to those events to maximize potential survivors and to minimize the amount of extra baggage the WoL would require to effectively deal with the problems faced after the events where Hermes orders the Metia to destroy the Universe. Nothing is impossible and defying fate is something Final Fantasy is all about, but also minimizing the number of McGuffins and Deus Exes is also something required to make the story more believable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

If you want to save the Ancients, but only start with the WoL themselves after Ktisis (or Pandaemonium, which doesn't meaningfully change anything here), either physically present or not, you'd better have an insanely elaborate plan that can be weaved out of literally nothing, because that's what you've got. In my eyes, the butterfly effect is its best hope, the notion that the WoL can beat their proverbial wings and cause exactly the one storm you need. And frankly, that sounds like a terrible plan.

---

Venat's plan also hinges on putting all her chips onto the WoL. All events post Elpis would be out of Venat's ability to predict due to the WoL not knowing what would happen upon returning to the present, thus unable to communicate this. As such, the following things would be unknown to her:

-The ability for the Sharlayan's and the Loporrits to construct a ship that is capable of FTL travel and is able to reach the absolute furthest point away from Etheirys in the Universe, aka Ultima Thule (note: She directed the Sharlayans to build such a vessel and it is possible she knew about what it had to be able to do since she had a Meteion tracker, however this is not explained and thus the former statement is allowed to remain.)

-The WoL being able to overcome the Endsinger inside of its own domain, which was not suitable for life and required the sacrifice of multiple Scions to reach Meteion. (note: She did enhance the Azem Crystal, but whether it would be enough would be something she would not know.)

-Zenos being pivotal to her plan's success without knowledge aforethought of him needing to be present in the final battle.

-Any and all events occurring outside of what the WoL would know she would have to direct in a way to get to all the events the WoL is describing as events as part of the MSQ (all non-essential quests outside of the MSQ can be ignored since this will differ from WoL to WoL).

-The timeline G'raha Tia was in had to play out exactly the way that it did, and her influence there would be extremely limited if any at all.

This does not include the issues surrounding the paradoxical nature of the Sundering, as there is no indication of whose idea the Sundering was. It cannot be any incarnation of the WoL in a timeline system that does not have alternate universes, as their existence hinges on the Sundering being a thing so there would never be a sundering ever unless the idea originated beyond them. In a system where Alternate Universes are allowed and time travelling spawns alternate universes, only the initial timeline and potentially the second one would be affected since the idea still has to come from somewhere, but the existence of the WoL inside of the past can be explained away a bit more simply from a logical perspective.

Yet despite all these things, the plot still works out in Venat's favor. Defying fate, defying destiny, and defying reality are all hallmarks of a Final Fantasy game. Boiling down everything into something that plays out like dominos or even a butterfly effect is effectively useless here, as the game plays out in a realm of fiction. Yet, you would likely rule out such a plot from being viable years ago with the logic you are running with for my ideas.

It is clear you are applying deterministic thinking to a game franchise that largely goes against this notion in favor of overcoming impossible odds, such as saving the Ancients from themselves. The WoL saving the Ancients from what appears to be a predestined fate from our current perspective would make for a Final Fantasy franchise styled plot as the WoL goes up against a seemingly impossible outcome, only to defy it to save those who came before, and whose sacrifices now result in their initial goal: their salvation.

So once again, I pose to you this question again: Why are you playing a game/game series where determinism is one of the least supported concepts in its themes, and is usually torn to shreds by the end of the game?

As always, when I ask these questions, it is not meant to be taken as an offense. It is me making an observation I would like to have an answer to. And while you are not obligated to answer the question, it would help me be able to potentially come up with something to your liking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

None of that makes sense, and the short story changes nothing except confirming whether we are in a "timeline is able to branch to support an old and new version of events" story or a "time traveller is exempt from the effects of a self-inflicted grandfather paradox" story, in favour of the former.

---

It makes as much sense as anything you've proposed, and yes, the short story confirms exactly what I've stated. It creates a second timeline, not a branch. It's not a branch, because the traversal relies on going to a space time that no longer has a coordinates within their own universe. This exempts their machine from being able to affect their timeline, since it needs those spatial coordinates (and it remains a great mystery as to how they even got them, since they're also dimensionally separate from The Source's universe and space time). The short story is the proof that their timeline was completely unaffected.

Branches for timelines come from second to second instances of time, and are already infinite and chaotic. You don't need a time machine to cause branches. They will result from any variation or hesitation in choice or chance.

The choice to try to change causality by traversing time causes a separate and new timeline, when dealing with backwards time travel. This is because the impetus for your traversal is linked to your past. You can't change your past at all, because it will fundamentally alter the casual links that lead up to your motive for the traversal. Particularly true if there's no way to account or plan to reverse for the changes you make.

Even if that's not how you view time travel, the short story introduced multiple timelines by having the 8UC remain unaffected by their traversal. This means their machine went to a parallel past. Not a shared past. For it to be a shared past, the short story would have to not exist, much like how the 8UC would have to no longer exist.

In other words, SHB's use of time travel concludes that you can change other timeline's past, but you can't change your own timeline's past. Which, with regards to Endwalker and the thread, means that the WoL could change things in the past but it would be in another timeline entirely.

Which Endwalker then takes the stance that a conjunction between two time periods has formed, resulting in our beloved causal loop, while still trying to have its cake and eat it too by having the WoL rewrite the past by showing them influencing things through Elpis sidequests. (This is why it's just Writer Fiat, and there are no real rules. This is a repeal or willful ignoring of the SHB precedent(in order to have fun, because there is nothing concrete about time travel, it is all theoretical and quite paradoxical))

You like to say that the story operates under the rules that changing the past just makes it so that the timeline revision is what always occurred, but that is not what occurs when there are multiple timelines. It doesn't even occur that way if you allow for branches, because the revisions will just cause branches, rather than change the actual events.

I know you're not going to see things my way, but perhaps others will. That's all I've got to say on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrasieArk

Also Hi new here but Ive lurked for 2 years going on Hello everyone who isnt the person Im quoting.

---

Welcome to the forums. It appears you are aware of how people can be on the forums, so with that I wish you safe travels through this land of headcanons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I know you're not going to see things my way, but perhaps others will. That's all I've got to say on this.

---

Right then, same back at you – I know you're not going to see things my way either, but perhaps other will want to listen to a theory that takes every part of the game and makes it all make sense together, over your theory that chooses to interpret things so they don't make sense with each other.

I came up with my theory to fit Shadowbringers' branching timeline together with Alexander's stable time loops, and then Endwalker came along and I didn't have to adjust anything in my theory at all. That tells me I was on the right track.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrasieArk

When it comes to the topic of the Ancients you absolutely are. However are we just going to ignore that all your examples happen in a Sundered World (AKA a Shard of 7/13ths) and in the Unsundered world we are playing by a different set of rules? Ancients don't have the restrictions in Aether like the Sundered.

In our timeline after the initial Final days killed a good portion of the Star and the Ancient people. Following that with an ever smaller population pool they managed to get more uses out of Zodiark with just their sacrifices alone no Ambient Aether required. So unless my math ain't mathing anymore I don't see why they wouldn't have an issue taking Aether from a much larger population of Ancients without requiring their bodies and souls. Call it an Aether Blood drive and take a small bit from the Star symbolism and what not.

Also your doing it again in response to Redheadturk. Bad faith arguments Tsk tsk

---

Zodiark was unfathomably huge as far as aether goes. Trying to do my own math here, if we just ballpark that the Ancient world and its denizens have twice as much aether in them as the current Source (I hoped the EW fisher stoyrline would shed light on this, but it doesn't), then it stands to reason that making a Zodiark now would require sacrificing the entire population, or their 'ambient aether' equivalent. That's a lot of aether, and it logically tracks with his fight; we only fought him at half-ish strength, with a pilot that had barely any experience, and he's still among the trials in this game.

For 'ambient aether drain wouldn't have been as big a deal pre-sundering' to hold, the primals threatening it need to be of comparable power to Zodiark. And they're fractions of his full power; Ramuh was made with a stockpile of crystals, Alexander is powered by what's basically an aetheric vacuum cleaner. Eureka we don't know the origins of, but we do know it wasn't making things nearly as fast or as frequently as Zodiark. Hell, while he's not directly comparable, Eden was just one sundered Ascian jacked up with a bunch of light aether, and it still nearly scoured a whole shard clean.

Yeah, I genuinely think that if Alexander walking was a potential Calamity's worth of aether drain, Zodiark doing something as significant as putting out an eternal barrier probably would've been much worse.


And my comments to Turk are just underlining the strangeness I find that the people allegedly defending the Ancients are the ones insulting them. The thing about the Ancients falling to what they did is that it lets them be as great as they were: if they were only felled by an essentially unstoppable force, then it's not a failure, it's just a loss. Similarly, Hydaelyn being the result of an Ancient group getting mass support, as the EE3 tells us, means that the Ancients went out on their terms. Even if they could never have been perfect, the Ancients were all they could have been; they were their best and did their best, and the story never takes that from them.

...but the argument of 'they could have solved this' does take that from them. It takes away their scientific intelligence by saying that they weren't smart enough to come up with your solution; it takes away their social intelligence by saying that they could easily have been swayed by a lying demagogue. It tears apart their political integrity by saying that said demagogue could've gotten that power in the first place, even though we see Lahabrea recognize and act on that exact problem with Athena.

By saying that there was some obvious perfect solution that they just didn't take, we infantilize them. That their enlightened masses were easily fooled, that their greatest minds couldn't see the obvious. That they were merely naive babes who were hopeless without our help, instead of mature adults who couldn't stop the inevitable, and eventually stopped themselves going further.

I think the Ancients deserve better than that. I can't stop you forcing them in the kiddie pool, but I can do my part by making this the last thing I say on it.

I never said they weren't smart enough. I said they had crucial knowledge about the cause of the problem withheld from them, and that is true. Had they had said knowledge [which is what I propose they be given for an alternate timeline to spawn] they could very well have defeated the Final Days.

And IMHO? They deserved better than what they got. They deserved an alternate timeline in which they got to live.

Venat did tell them how to beat the Final Days in that lengthy cutscene

---
Venat
No, my friends. Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise.

No civilization, however great, could eliminate it. If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion.
Let us not seek to forget this tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness.

Bitter Ancient
We can't accept it! We won't accept it! It will be ours again—a world free of sorrow!

Venat
No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time.

So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness.
No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated.
---

Stopping that particular Final Days would not stop another Athena or Hermes from doing the same thing again 1000, 10000 or 100000 years in the future if they never learn how to accept sufferings. This is the main point of the story (the details don't matter). There's no such thing as a perfect society (otherwise people like Athena or Hermes would not exist) and they have to learn accepting imperfection as part of their society instead of declaring every imperfect things or beings a failure immediately. Maybe there's a slight flaw in the writing where they didn't hammer this point well enough but the main idea is solid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Zodiark was unfathomably huge as far as aether goes. Trying to do my own math here, if we just ballpark that the Ancient world and its denizens have twice as much aether in them as the current Source (I hoped the EW fisher stoyrline would shed light on this, but it doesn't), then it stands to reason that making a Zodiark now would require sacrificing the entire population

---

I don't get your reasoning here. If a quarter percentage of the remaining Ancient civilization of Etheryris was enough to not only summon Zodiark but also give 2 additional uses.....why would they need to sacrifice their entire population?

For that matter where are you pulling an Ancient being twice as much Aether compared to a source denizen? The people of the Source aren't Ancients they have a completely different Baseline. We know this because folks in the 1st aren't inherently weaker in Aether usage versus the source and the same for Void Sent in the 13th. The only real exception to this are Freaks of Nature like the WoL , Godbert , and his wife.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Zodiark was unfathomably huge
For 'ambient aether drain wouldn't have been as big a deal pre-sundering' to hold, the primals threatening it need to be of comparable power to Zodiark. And they're fractions of his full power; Ramuh was made with a stockpile of crystals, Alexander is powered by what's basically an aetheric vacuum cleaner. Eureka we don't know the origins of, but we do know it wasn't making things nearly as fast or as frequently as Zodiark. Hell, while he's not directly comparable, Eden was just one sundered Ascian jacked up with a bunch of light aether, and it still nearly scoured a whole shard clean.

Yeah, I genuinely think that if Alexander walking was a potential Calamity's worth of aether drain, Zodiark doing something as significant as putting out an eternal barrier probably would've been much worse.

---

And yet it the proposed 3rd sacrifice would've used something similar to Ambient Aether or the Star if you will for yet another use of Zodiark , Heck even the fully rejoined Source according to Emet could've done the same thing. This is a classic Power creep situation but point still remains Ancient world Ancient rules.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think the Ancients deserve better than that. I can't stop you forcing them in the kiddie pool, but I can do my part by making this the last thing I say on it.

---

This is the bad faith Argument. We all know this was a controversial point in the EW MSQ. You yourself wanted to avoid "THAT SAME DAMNED ARGUEMENT" in your very first post in this thread. Being blunt this is your Nuclear method to kill or derail the topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuella

Venat did tell them how to beat the Final Days in that lengthy cutscene

---
Venat
No, my friends. Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise.

No civilization, however great, could eliminate it. If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion.
Let us not seek to forget this tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness.

Bitter Ancient
We can't accept it! We won't accept it! It will be ours again—a world free of sorrow!

Venat
No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time.

So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness.
No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated.
---

Stopping that particular Final Days would not stop another Athena or Hermes from doing the same thing again 1000, 10000 or 100000 years in the future if they never learn how to accept sufferings. This is the main point of the story (the details don't matter). There's no such thing as a perfect society (otherwise people like Athena or Hermes would not exist) and they have to learn accepting imperfection as part of their society instead of declaring every imperfect things or beings a failure immediately. Maybe there's a slight flaw in the writing where they didn't hammer this point well enough but the main idea is solid.

---

Yuella, you are being disingenuous. This is not "showing the way", this is Venat pontificating at a group of random people traumatized by an extinction level event that could have been avoided if she had told one or two Convocation members the truth. I disagree with EW's point that a world that has done its best to mitigate suffering [which we in the real world should be doing anyway, ya know, leaving the world a better place than we found it] is a bad place to be, that is all. Also, I would certainly prefer a thousand or 10 thousand years of a relatively tranquil life in the Ancient world where people don't starve or have to worry about being prostituted out [Limsa and Ul'dah both] or murdered in wars [Garlemald]. So, yeah.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuella

Stopping that particular Final Days would not stop another Athena or Hermes from doing the same thing again 1000, 10000 or 100000 years in the future if they never learn how to accept sufferings. This is the main point of the story (the details don't matter).

---

While this may be true of EW, that does not mean they are beyond saving. If we are arguing the main point of EW story as a justification as to why you cannot save the Ancients, consider that nearly all, if not all, Final Fantasy franchise games have an overarching theme about overcoming impossible challenges and odds in order to defy fate and becoming the person who shapes their own fate. Look at nearly every game and this theme will be manifested somewhere inside of each of the main titles, some more overt than others.

This theme is extremely present in FFXIV and is much more pronounced in later expansions as the feats the WoL and companions accomplish become more and more distinguished to the point you end up saving the Universe as a whole by the end of EW. DT's feats are going to likely be considerably less grand (at least from initial views of it as it isn't out yet) compared to that of EW and ShB, but this overarching plot will likely still exist in some form or another.

With that said, the task of saving the Ancients, based on your words, fulfills the "impossibility" portion of the equation and saving the Ancients in an alternate timeline would be defying fate. From a theme's perspective, I would say saving the Ancients fits in with a classic Final Fantasy styled plot and does have considerable potential down the line to come up in a future expansion .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZavosEsperian

While this may be true of EW, that does not mean they are beyond saving. If we are arguing the main point of EW story as a justification as to why you cannot save the Ancients, consider that nearly all, if not all, Final Fantasy franchise games have an overarching theme about overcoming impossible challenges and odds in order to defy fate and becoming the person who shapes their own fate. Look at nearly every game and this theme will be manifested somewhere inside of each of the main titles, some more overt than others.

This theme is extremely present in FFXIV and is much more pronounced in later expansions as the feats the WoL and companions accomplish become more and more distinguished to the point you end up saving the Universe as a whole by the end of EW. DT's feats are going to likely be considerably less grand (at least from initial views of it as it isn't out yet) compared to that of EW and ShB, but this overarching plot will likely still exist in some form or another.

With that said, the task of saving the Ancients, based on your words, fulfills the "impossibility" portion of the equation and saving the Ancients in an alternate timeline would be defying fate. From a theme's perspective, I would say saving the Ancients fits in with a classic Final Fantasy styled plot and does have considerable potential down the line to come up in a future expansion .

---

I can agree with that although I feel they need to experience something similar (doesn't have to lead to a sundering) that make them realize that they need to accept that imperfection exists as a part of society.

I do think we will revisit Azem and their action during the Final Days. The final short story shows Azem running off somewhere in a hurry, maybe they had a plan to save at least some of the Ancients that are not in Amaurot/Elpis.