How to Restore Confidence in FFXIV

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

You were meant to rescue the Red Flight's clutch, not destroy them!

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Yeah, but that's not as fun lol

Plus from my point of view the Jed- I mean Red Flight are evil, or something like that.

(is now a good time to admit that I have no idea what the red flight is? lol)

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

And seriously there's nothing in 21-30 that can one shot and wipe entire parties if you're remotely paying attention. The one-shots only begin at 41+ and was a great way to make hardcore DD more fun (but they also made it much less fun at the same time by nerfing autos to the point where even DPS don't need to kite anything).

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I'm pretty sure he's talking about dread beasts which can wipe the party on that level at low aetherpool levels. But they're also easy to sneak past.

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

Have fun in WoW!

And yeah, it's funny the FF14 community will keep complaining about a vocal minority complaining about the game... when they are the minority. Because the majority already moved on to other games lol

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Except, of course, that they're not. FC's are filled, queues pop even for odd raids at all hours of the day. It is indeed a vocal minority of pathetically bitter people here on the forums that are complaining because they can't stand that other people are having fun playing the game. This forum was less of a cesspool when a certain few people took some time off (ironically, for all they claim to hate the game, they...apparently resubbed and are actively playing again...).

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Originally Posted by Striker44

It is indeed a vocal minority of pathetically bitter people here on the forums

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It seems MajoritahGPT is back up and running guys!

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...6cf1a1a1ab.jpg

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

blah blah blah blah vocal minority blah blah blah blah the game is great blah blah blah blah everyone not happy is bad just quit blah blah blah blah yoshi p good, players bad

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You have been on fire with these poster synopses.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except, of course, that they're not. FC's are filled, queues pop even for odd raids at all hours of the day. It is indeed a vocal minority of pathetically bitter people here on the forums that are complaining because they can't stand that other people are having fun playing the game. This forum was less of a cesspool when a certain few people took some time off (ironically, for all they claim to hate the game, they...apparently resubbed and are actively playing again...).

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blah blah blah blah vocal minority blah blah blah blah the game is great blah blah blah blah everyone not happy is bad just quit blah blah blah blah yoshi p good, players bad

Curious how youtube is no longer convenient to mention by those who choose to be constantly dismissive of those of us who have been sounding the alarm bells now that their beloved content creators have woken up.

It's interesting how certain posters try to present anyone providing criticism as some sort of 'hater' when their own post history consists solely of attempts to dismiss absolutely any feedback whatsoever. It doesn't matter if it's to do with the story, the combat system, the UI, this very site or anything else. Somehow there's this mythical 'majority' that are absolutely fine with it all to the point where any change whatsoever is dismissed.

Furthermore, the free login campaign is a thing - so that can readily explain returning posters to some extent.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

It seems MajoritahGPT is back up and running guys!
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...6cf1a1a1ab.jpg

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Hahahaha, this is gold.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except, of course, that they're not. FC's are filled, queues pop even for odd raids at all hours of the day.

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For 10 points: how to say you are not playing on Materia without saying you're not on Materia

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Somehow there's this mythical 'majority' that are absolutely fine with it all to the point where any change whatsoever is dismissed.

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Actually, when I look at the massive negativity and doomsaying here, i am reminded that misery loves company.

Theodric: look at it this way: this small band of permanently angry and bitter malcontents in this forum dont represent more than a fraction of a fraction of one percent of ONE servers population..so in that aspect, there IS a huge majority that dont care for, dont share in and CERTAINLY dont listen to the constant whining we see here.

They are too busy ingame enjoying themselves..how this is news to anyone surprises me.

Oh I saw that little gif above..and yes, mate, hate to tell you this....you ARE in the minority. If you took this lot's attitude to heart, you'd think that the game is on its last legs, dying, owing to the "lack of vision" or the "inability to listen to feedback" and "people are leaving in droves". No.

They arent. Yes the population ebbs and flows as it has done for years, again this is hardly new. Im having fun. Sorry to hear others arent...but again, as has been said, some of them will never be happy, regardless.

Note here on Aveyond's "ideas"..has anyone else ever noticed the missing word from his screeds...the words "I could be wrong?" When someone isnt prepared to accept that they arent speaking ex cathedra, when they arent ready...or willing....to admit error, thats an indication one should be rightly skeptical of such "pronouncements". People put way too much faith into oracles.

"Yoshi is too busy on FF 16"

FF 16 is done, finished, ready to ship minus marketing..incidentally, project managers can and do supervise MULTIPLE projects, so this claim that "FF 16 took all their attention away, and that is the cause of all our woes"..has never considered that one can multitask , do more than one thing at a time?

Streamers? Like Asmongold?

The guy who decried Blizzards track record of how they treat their staff....yet doesnt have the conviction of his own principles, of conscience, to do what others have done and stop supporting them, stop buying their products? When they put their money where their mouth is..then Ill listen to them. I see it this way: if you keep buying their products, you are supporting them and by that means, approving of what they do. You endorse their policies and practices.

If you disapprove? Vote with your wallet. I did.

Streamers follow the money, they always have, they always will. Twitch streamers more so, as to them Twitch is an income source.

The game is not on its last legs, the sky isnt falling, the world of Eorzea isnt coming to an end. Not for a very very long time. Im here for the duration and having a blast. What you do? Is not my concern.

No game is perfect, none will ever be, the plain truth is somewhere, someone is always going to be unhappy.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

i am reminded that misery loves company.

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Is THAT why you're always so angry? It all makes sense now. Vel just wanted a friend.

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Is THAT why you're always so angry? It all makes sense now. Vel just wanted a friend.

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https://media.tenor.com/i3JJ_ZE40IEA...oony-tunes.gif

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Originally Posted by BRVV

For 10 points: how to say you are not playing on Materia without saying you're not on Materia

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It's my general understanding that people are still struggling to queue into the latest story trial for Mt. Ordeals and all alliance raids except Crystal Tower across all datacenters. With how lacklustre the moogle rewards are for this patch, I doubt its doing too much to push people to do the NieR raids either.

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It's my general understanding that people are still struggling to queue into the latest story trial for Mt. Ordeals and all alliance raids except Crystal Tower across all datacenters.

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[ Source, proof and citation required ]

Honestly, no offence, but how the hell do you know whats going on across all datacentres?

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With how lacklustre the moogle rewards are for this patch, I doubt its doing too much to push people to do the NieR raids either.

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..and youd be wrong.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

[ Source, proof and citation required ]

Honestly, no offence, but how the hell do you know whats going on across all datacentres?



..and youd be wrong.

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Got bored and logged on my Materia alt on Zurvan, time wise it is around 11PM in Canberra (yell at google if I used the wrong time zone for accurate comparisons, just the first one that came up in the list).

Housing looks the exact same as when I left it 3-6m ago. Entire wards empty in multiple districts which blows my mind considering how sought-after larges are. That to me speaks miles about how hard people are trying to put down roots in the server.

Queue wise I was looking at 7-10m queues for all except Alliance Raid which is at 20m. A much better improvement compared to how it was before unless this is just me catching things at prime time and it'll revert back to 30-1h+ queues afterwards (might revisit it in the morning hours and see what the land looks like). I can't speak on current content or 90/Expert roulette as I haven't taken her through the majority of Endwalker yet.

After checking player search there are currently 163 players online in Zurvan...which is...interesting.

PF is currently sitting at 20 entries. I actually find this interesting as 2/20 are for RP or venue related activities, the rest are for content or item buying. I might have to start giving this alt some more attention if the RP scene is quiet there. :P

Overall, it looks to me like a similar situation to Dynamis outside of housing, the low pop on the server (haven't seen numbers like that since week 1 or 2 of Dyna launching) and the extremely small RP population which to me is a nice change from the constant vomit of it on the NA side of things.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Curious how youtube is no longer convenient to mention by those who choose to be constantly dismissive of those of us who have been sounding the alarm bells now that their beloved content creators have woken up.

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The value of content creators, to me, is they often find a more fair and balanced perspective than the majority of the community and have a voice that SE is more likely to listen to. However, they are often veteran players as well and prone to the same veteran player bias that affects many of us on the forums. That bias causes a narrow view of the game that pertains only to the content they are interested in and to forget what it's like to be a new player.

A lot of people who saw the interview about the third step being this way are going to be disappointed though, not just content creators.

The relic steps and lack of a place like Eureka are disappointing. That's fair to say. It's not fair when people are saying "they haven't made any content" because that's not technically true. It's fairer when people say "the content doesn't last long", especially the current relics, or to say that content replacing it is lacking social interaction like Island Sanctuary, Variant dungeons and Duty Support which all involve playing solo.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It's my general understanding that people are still struggling to queue into the latest story trial for Mt. Ordeals and all alliance raids except Crystal Tower across all datacenters. With how lacklustre the moogle rewards are for this patch, I doubt its doing too much to push people to do the NieR raids either.

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I do get Mount Ordeals in trial and mentor roulettes a lot. The latest trial as well as max level trials in general have always been difficult to get a queue for. This was a problem with Hades and SoS in the last expansion as well. Why would you queue into a trial roulette at level 90? I do it, but most people who do it are below 90 leveling a job.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

[ Source, proof and citation required ]

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Where are the sources to your long post last page?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Where are the sources to your long post last page?

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Vel doesnt need sources, only other people do lmao

(this is sarcasm just to clarify, but they will always ask for sources and citations, yet never have any themselves)

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

..and youd be wrong.

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SOURCE

PROOF

...and


CITATIONS, APA 9TH EDITION STYLE REQUIRED

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It's my general understanding that people are still struggling to queue into the latest story trial for Mt. Ordeals and all alliance raids except Crystal Tower across all datacenters. With how lacklustre the moogle rewards are for this patch, I doubt its doing too much to push people to do the NieR raids either.

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That's funny, I have no problem getting the new Alliance raids to pop at all any day of the week. Granted I also play during prime time on Crystal, but that would throw your argument out completely just by itself. As another said, unfortunately the NM of a story trial always ends up being hard to get a group for towards the end of a patch cycle. There's no rewards and no reason for people to go back to it aside from getting it in their roulettes.

As for any Alliance Raids other than the new ones, well that has also always been a problem. Too many people cheat the system to make sure they only get the CT raids from the roulette, on top of the people who only have the CT raids unlocked, ends up resulting in everyone just getting the CT raids. There isn't much SE can do about this except maybe making unlocking all Alliance Raids a requirement and calculating your ilvl based off the highest ilvl gear you have in your inventory for the job you are queuing with. Unfortunately, this could be abused by tossing it onto Retainers since those storages are only active when queried.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The value of content creators, to me, is they often find a more fair and balanced perspective than the majority of the community and have a voice that SE is more likely to listen to. However, they are often veteran players as well and prone to the same veteran player bias that affects many of us on the forums. That bias causes a narrow view of the game that pertains only to the content they are interested in and to forget what it's like to be a new player.

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To be fair, when discussing the lack of content and longevity in the game new players are somewhat irrelevant because their experiences will be biased in a different way, i.e., the game will feel as though it's exploding with content due to them having only just started playing. That's generally why veteran players, be they content creators or a forum/reddit poster will focus on current content releases. A major criticism of FFXIV spanning multiple expansions now has always been content longevity. If you're a veteran player, you typically will run out of things to do long before anything new releases no matter how many breaks you take. Of course, this does depend on individual player time and investment but unless you're playing 2-4 hours a week, there simply isn't enough to last.

It isn't that we forgot what it's like to be a new player but rather it isn't relevant to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Theodric: look at it this way: this small band of permanently angry and bitter malcontents in this forum dont represent more than a fraction of a fraction of one percent of ONE servers population..so in that aspect, there IS a huge majority that dont care for, dont share in and CERTAINLY dont listen to the constant whining we see here.

Oh I saw that little gif above..and yes, mate, hate to tell you this....you ARE in the minority. If you took this lot's attitude to heart, you'd think that the game is on its last legs, dying, owing to the "lack of vision" or the "inability to listen to feedback" and "people are leaving in droves". No.

Note here on Aveyond's "ideas"..has anyone else ever noticed the missing word from his screeds...the words "I could be wrong?" When someone isnt prepared to accept that they arent speaking ex cathedra, when they arent ready...or willing....to admit error, thats an indication one should be rightly skeptical of such "pronouncements". People put way too much faith into oracles.

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I think I'm beginning to grow quite weary of you, and I just started here. So many of your accusations and insinuations detail character faults that you yourself exhibit, front and center. I haven't seen much of Aveyond's storied history, from what I've been told but I have seen you and a few others consistently appear to be no better. Why can none of you actually detail this majority you love to quote? Give examples? You can't just point to players playing the game, you have no clue at all what they're actually doing in game, what they enjoy in game, indeed if they even truly enjoy it at all. This dearth of majority claims is quite hypocritical in my own humble opinion, since it directly contrasts the constant insinuations of ex cathedra.

The ones showcasing sources and citing their claims are the critics from what I've witnessed, all the defense has is pointless and empty blather and bloviation. But if nothing else, at least certain other posters can claim to be polite about it all.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

[ Source, proof and citation required ]

Honestly, no offence, but how the hell do you know whats going on across all datacentres?

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Because posts to this effect show up on Reddit and Twitter with startlingly increasing frequency of late? Seriously, I don't even use social media and yet I've seen and heard of these occurrences.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

Why can none of you actually detail this majority you love to quote? Give examples?

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Because their 'majority' is meant to be a convenient cudgel used to silence dissenters, and nothing more. That's why the only response I usually give to people like Striker who repeat that same tired line ad nauseam is to laugh at them. It's funny and sad at the same time, although it's been leaning towards the latter more and more as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Because their 'majority' is meant to be a convenient cudgel used to silence dissenters, and nothing more. That's why the only response I usually give to people like Striker who repeat that same tired line ad nauseam is to laugh at them. It's funny and sad at the same time, although it's been leaning towards the latter more and more as time goes on.

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It's also a argumentum ad Populum

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Because their 'majority' is meant to be a convenient cudgel used to silence dissenters, and nothing more.

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Agreed.

The " Majority " argument point is an overused strawman to silence posters. It in no way magically " Erases " all the bad/negative/flawed aspects or player-experience. Bending-over-backwards to appeal to the harshest to please players is not what they should do, but there's no benefit from ignoring nor silencing valid critique that they could use as feedback. XIV can definitely improve and it's sad to know that plenty aspects can! without a lot of effort or major changes and it for the longest time is not happening...

Aside from Quality-of-Life changes that should be the norm? it's the direction of the game that doesn't spark confidence in plenty. What has been the general complaints of the forum posters about Endwalker? excl. the troll posts

• Negatively received or lack of positive Job Design changes
• The egregious 2-minute meta
• Story with Scions about to die? Syke! again not really
• Ultimate's with a taboo Ban action
• Omega Protocol Ultimate with bugs and glitches upon release
• Housing wards poorly distributed between private vs FC upon release
• What Island Sanctuary coulda been but isn't, lacking a ton
• Still no idea why the Housing interface is so terrible
• The announcement of next patch taking longer
• Copy Pasted rewards yet again during events like Moogle tomes
• Relic story is a literal joke compared to Zadnor in content amount
• The third party tool QOL implementations after banning players who use them
• Probably something about Hrothgar/Vierra hats

And plenty of other things to be noted, there's a good reason why players have no confidence with the direction of the game because in many aspects the changes or aspects that came along with Endwalker feels " Lazy " for how much a big company like Square can pull off, but won't.

Personally? 6.08 was the patch with all the confidence in the world for me that they are on the right track with big improvements and changes to come. Instead? we get 6.1 holy crap and yeah... from there on out? Zero Confidence. As much as anyone can complain? the attachment players have gotten with their characters/communities/friends and the game? is probably all there is to it. Endwalker for many is just " diet-fun " at best because it can be so much better, but Square willingly chooses to make it worse then it should be.

Most of what you said makes sense to complain about, but...

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Story with Scions about to die? Syke! again not really

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This is just a lack of understanding of what SE was trying to do. You were going to a land of despair and they wanted you to feel despair. The problem is you were feeling happy and confident. In order to change that, they had to kill the scions. Once you had made progress through the area, in order to make you feel hope and like there was a light at the end of the tunnel, they had to introduce the possibility they would come back.

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Omega Protocol Ultimate with bugs and glitches upon release

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Bugs and glitches exist. You would struggle to find actively developed applications that don't actively have to receive bug fixes.

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Copy Pasted rewards yet again during events like Moogle tomes

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You should understand that the Moogle tome rewards are all things that exist in the game already and are intended for newer players to catch up their mounts, minion and other rewards to veteran players who already have them, in exchange for helping to queue for duties.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

This is just a lack of understanding of what SE was trying to do. You were going to a land of despair and they wanted you to feel despair. The problem is you were feeling happy and confident. In order to change that, they had to kill the scions. Once you had made progress through the area, in order to make you feel hope and like there was a light at the end of the tunnel, they had to introduce the possibility they would come back.

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Ultima Thule?

More like Ultima Mid frfr.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It isn't that we forgot what it's like to be a new player but rather it isn't relevant to the discussion.

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I have to disagree that it's not relevant. New players are paying customers just the same as the veteran players. Even if the side content is optional, many new players feel like it's content they have to catch up on because it's there.

The playable part of content this expansion isn't in worse shape than last expansion quantity wise. There have been some changes (such as Deep Dungeon instead of exploration zone, getting Variant/Criterion while the normal trial series got merged into MSQ instead of a separate quest chain, etc.) but we're getting just as much playable content overall.

It sounds more like the quality of the content and/or the rewards making the content less interesting to repeat.

What made Eden more interesting to repeat than Pandaemonium has been?

What made the Sorrows of Werlyt trials more interesting to repeat than Storm's Crown/Mount Ordeals?

It's a lot more difficult to try to compare Bozja/Zadnor versus Eureka Orthos/Si'dihn Subteranne because they're different content types but what kept people going back into the former while they ignore the latter?

Was there other content they were doing in Shadowbringers to fill time that doesn't have an equivalent this expansion, and what was so appealing about it?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

This is just a lack of understanding of what SE was trying to do. You were going to a land of despair and they wanted you to feel despair. The problem is you were feeling happy and confident. In order to change that, they had to kill the scions. Once you had made progress through the area, in order to make you feel hope and like there was a light at the end of the tunnel, they had to introduce the possibility they would come back.

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GREAT "idea" of SE. Do you even realize the consequence? Like the obvious one? Cat girl has already fake died in ShB. Zenos somehow isn't interested in killing any of our friends when we are away. No he HELPS us because after an entire expansion he realizes that he wants to fight us. After always wanting to fight us... but back to the scions. Them fake-dieing so much means any tension about their safety is gone. We could see them getting toasted, have a full on funeral and i would sigh and ask: "Ok game, how long until they're back?"

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Originally Posted by BRVV

GREAT "idea" of SE. Do you even realize the consequence? Like the obvious one? Cat girl has already fake died in ShB. Zenos somehow isn't interested in killing any of our friends when we are away. No he HELPS us because after an entire expansion he realizes that he wants to fight us. After always wanting to fight us... but back to the scions. Them fake-dieing so much means any tension about their safety is gone. We could see them getting toasted, have a full on funeral and i would sigh and ask: "Ok game, how long until they're back?"

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Yes, I was thinking "how long until they're back?" as well but I couldn't be 100% certain. It was also the end of the story arc and it seemed possible they would end them as well. It planted enough doubt in my mind to be worried they wouldn't return, and Y'shtola saying we could get them back convinced me we would probably get at least some of them back. It made me feel actual despair because if they all died in one go and we've almost explored every story arc the game had left, then what is left for the future of the game?

It made me feel despair of the overall future of the game, so they succeeded at making me feel that way. In fact bringing the scions back wasn't entirely enough to get rid of that despair. So apparently they delayed Endwalker to add in Emet's lines about places we haven't been yet.

This entire huge thread... The Japanese will never respect Gaijin opinions.

Never.

It really IS that simple. It is sad, but that's how it is.

Enjoy what you can. If there's not enough... you're better off moving on.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Most of what you said makes sense to complain about, but...

This is just a lack of understanding of what SE was trying to do. You were going to a land of despair and they wanted you to feel despair. The problem is you were feeling happy and confident. In order to change that, they had to kill the scions. Once you had made progress through the area, in order to make you feel hope and like there was a light at the end of the tunnel, they had to introduce the possibility they would come back.

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Wished you'd have quoted what I said before that as well " What has been the general complaints of the forum posters about Endwalker? excl. the troll posts " to give it some context since I sifted through posts to just compile a quick list on what I saw general posters complaining about.

I'm not misunderstanding anything either? Endwalker story felt underwhelming to me personally and liking a story is very subjective.

• Scions going through plot armor again is becoming old
• Garlemald being another ruined City feels underwhelming
• I liked nothing about how Fandaniel was written
• Disliked how Zodiark story-wise was a incomplete pushover
• Body-swapping? really felt like there's a plot-hole here

Unironically, " The Final Days " a calamity feels less intense then " Zadnor " to me. Oh to which also everyone important survived the Final days cause big surprise there. To much " Plot Armor " sprinkled all over the place for me to enjoy Endwalker's story aside from realizing that I was beating up " In-game Twitter " with the " power-of-friendship " no less...

What we like and do not like about Endwalker varies per player and is subjective. Clearly there's a big portion of players that do not like Endwalker, otherwise it wouldn't be getting so much negativity vs say the previous expansion Shadowbringers.

The thread is about " confidence " and there's very little in how Endwalker was handled beyond just the story? that gives me confidence going forward. If you're unfazed on how XIV goes forward? well done you. The only " Despair " I experienced from Endwalker were the Job Changes. And just so we're clear? personal opinion, it's subjective. We don't want more misunderstandings I hope, mhm.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It made me feel despair of the overall future of the game, so they succeeded at making me feel that way. In fact bringing the scions back wasn't entirely enough to get rid of that despair. So apparently they delayed Endwalker to add in Emet's lines about places we haven't been yet.

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I'm not worried about that at all with the current writers. Endsinger was clearly made up during EW and then shoehorned in. We can get basically anything like this. Just give us something new and have us use the echo (remember that?) or if you forgot it time travel to trick it into "always" being in the story.

7.0 prediction: The endsinger wasn't ACTUALLY gonna destroy the whole universe! But discount Thanos will be! He collected the McGuffin Burgers from the new zones! He was the evil entity that corrupted the Endsinger! #TiedBackToTheOriginal

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I have to disagree that it's not relevant. New players are paying customers just the same as the veteran players. Even if the side content is optional, many new players feel like it's content they have to catch up on because it's there.

The playable part of content this expansion isn't in worse shape than last expansion quantity wise. There have been some changes (such as Deep Dungeon instead of exploration zone, getting Variant/Criterion while the normal trial series got merged into MSQ instead of a separate quest chain, etc.) but we're getting just as much playable content overall.

It sounds more like the quality of the content and/or the rewards making the content less interesting to repeat.

What made Eden more interesting to repeat than Pandaemonium has been?

What made the Sorrows of Werlyt trials more interesting to repeat than Storm's Crown/Mount Ordeals?

It's a lot more difficult to try to compare Bozja/Zadnor versus Eureka Orthos/Si'dihn Subteranne because they're different content types but what kept people going back into the former while they ignore the latter?

Was there other content they were doing in Shadowbringers to fill time that doesn't have an equivalent this expansion, and what was so appealing about it?

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I think comparing SB to EW would be more accurate, since SB had Eureka and DD, while EW has DD and 2 new types of content. Let's give EW small benefit and call HoH and EO equal. I'm not super passionate DD player, but I think HoH > EO, especially since HoH innovated DD, while EO is just HoH V2 without any major innovation. Only big change is dread beasts, but you just one shot it with pom of storm or skip it entirely.

So now that both DDs negate each other, we are left with Eureka vs IS and V&C.

Eureka is 4 maps + Baldesion arsenal. There is multiple new progression systems inside - your elemental level, element attunement, some very rare drops that have special effects inside Eureka and most importantly, logograms for Pyros and up. There is relic weapon progression for all of these maps + relic armor for Anemos (granted it's just dyeable artifact armor) and brand new relic armor sets for Pyros, Hydatos and BA. There are also that special chestpieces that give elemental bonus, which are still costy today. You can still sell logos for pretty good profit, too.

As for EW, there is IS, which, let's be real, is just excel simulator, everything on the island is there just to fuel the workshop. You can leisurely get max rank while playing 20-30 minutes per day for 2 weeks, after that, content is finished and you're left with checking out your island for 3 minutes per week. All the while entire content is barely connected to the main game.

Then V&C, which is great but has no incentives to run it again. There isn't really a progression, even though it has system similar to logos/lost actions. There is only 5 very basic, bland spells. Jump from variant to ASS is too big, which is shame since there is lack of content in between normal and EX/Savage content. But there is still benefit of doubt, since there should be 2 more dungeons released and rewards should be improved according to last LL. Whether that means more materia and one time rewards remains to be seen.

So I'm not going tell you that you are wrong for enjoying EW (unlike some people in here who try to convince me that I hate this game). If you don't play much I can see people enjoying simple one and done content like IS and V&C more than Eureka, but if you want to play more than 2 weeks per patch, then I think past expansions are much better for that.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Scions going through plot armor again is becoming old

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Perhaps in general, but in the context of that very specific area that just wasn't their goal. Maybe they could have had despair consume one of them earlier in the story at Thavnair or something like that, sure.

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Garlemald being another ruined City feels underwhelming

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I'd admit I was a bit tired of always dealing with ruins and relics of the past instead of a thriving nation. I want to see an Allagan or Ronkan empire that is still thriving, a thriving Doma that isn't just a tiny square that we salvaged, Monks that aren't just a few survivors remaking the art, I could go on but so often, it's just rubble and ruins as if we missed the party.

I try to remind myself that as a sprout I was excited to see Sharlayan in the Hinterlands only to find rubble, but was finally able to see a thriving version in Endwalker or that we have modern thriving civlizations like the Grand Companies, Ironworks or Kugane.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

So now that both DDs negate each other, we are left with Eureka vs IS and V&C.

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Island Sanctuary is one map, but as of 6.4 will have had 2-3 increases to the ranks (like Eureka had increases to the level). Additional progression systems involve the quests, the workshop system, gathering enough materials and buying all the rewards. There are rare animals to obtain for your farm (although not FF11 rare). V&C have rare minion drops and a mount. Both Island Sanctuary and V&C have special actions similar to logograms.

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There is relic weapon progression for all of these maps

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Obviously we get that with Hildibrand now and it's much quicker. Special effects on armor seem to have happened for the raid armor instead.

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You can still sell logos for pretty good profit, too.

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You can sell V&C minions or crafter and gatherer materia from Island Sanctuary for a good profit too.

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You can leisurely get max rank while playing 20-30 minutes per day for 2 weeks

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Technically you could probably do that with Eureka as well. When it was current, I did each area in just a few 3-hour sessions. If we split 9 hours up into 30 minutes a day, it would take 18 days, which is close enough. Let's include Variant dungeons, which have multiple routes and we will have 3 of, in place of the other 3 areas. There just isn't the social interaction involved.

Of course, bosses and some area design are put into 3 V&C, Ocean Fishing, or the MSQ changes (although a small portion of that could come from the HM dungeons we got in Stormblood).

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Island Sanctuary is one map, but as of 6.4 will have had 2-3 increases to the ranks (like Eureka had increases to the level). Additional progression systems involve the quests, the workshop system, gathering enough materials and buying all the rewards. There are rare animals to obtain for your farm (although not FF11 rare).

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Last increase to rank (10-12) was more of the same, just another glam set and other one time rewards. Nice of you to mention quests, since Eureka had them and they even had real story, unlike IS. Island upgrades are nice, I wouldn't mind comparing it to elemental level progression.

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V&C have rare minion drops and a mount.

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Most of the regular content has rare minion drop and some mount as a reward, this isn't meaningful progression.

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Both Island Sanctuary and V&C have special actions similar to logograms.

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I have no clue what special actions of IS you mean, maybe that weird sprint which is bound as duty action, instead of putting it in place of an actual sprint? And V&C has five (5!) special actions which are bland and void of any creativity. Eureka has 50+ logos, many of which have very creative effects, like reflects and similar.

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Obviously we get that with Hildibrand now and it's much quicker. Special effects on armor seem to have happened for the raid armor instead.

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You could replace Hildibrand with just a Gerolt and much wouldn't change. It shouldn't be quicker, point of relic is (was) that there is some prestige in getting them. Now they're just alternate tome weapons. Those special effects are only on abyssos right now, I don't think there is some correlation.

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You can sell V&C minions or crafter and gatherer materia from Island Sanctuary for a good profit too.

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Rare drops are unreliable source of income. Materia from IS is timegated, so it's just a passive income. Unless you want to click on nodes 24/7, in which case, regular DoH/DoL activities are much more effective.

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Technically you could probably do that with Eureka as well. When it was current, I did each area in just a few 3-hour sessions. If we split 9 hours up into 30 minutes a day, it would take 18 days, which is close enough. Let's include Variant dungeons, which have multiple routes and we will have 3 of, in place of the other 3 areas. There just isn't the social interaction involved.

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You do IS once and you're done, same with V&C. You do Eureka relic from start to finish and you have 14 other relics to get. And after that, you can still make profit from just logos.

Also you did not account that Eureka takes much longer first time you do it because of leveling.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Last increase to rank (10-12) was more of the same, just another glam set and other one time rewards.

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Could argue that other Eureka areas were "more of the same". More NMs, another big boss that drops an important item, a level cap increase.

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Nice of you to mention quests, since Eureka had them and they even had real story, unlike IS.

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V&C have the real story I suppose.

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Most of the regular content has rare minion drop and some mount as a reward, this isn't meaningful progression.

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So then neither is most of the loot in Eureka.

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I have no clue what special actions of IS you mean

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All the ones to feed animals, sow seeds, gather things, the V&C dot, mitigation, heals and rez. They aren't as spectacular as logos or lost actions, but they involve similar development. We could argue all the individual items and plants we pick and grow are using similar development work, because icons are made for them.

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You do IS once and you're done, same with V&C. You do Eureka relic from start to finish and you have 14 other relics to get.

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I agree. Although it does depend. You have to run Variant dungeons multiple times for the mount and can farm them for the minions and other rewards. You have a lot of Criterion runs to do if you want the mount. But I agree it's not the same as having lots of relics to do making the content replayable. They are also really boring to repeat, especially Variant dungeons (I gave up and just bought the minions).

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Also you did not account that Eureka takes much longer first time you do it because of leveling.

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I did. It only took me a few sessions of 3 hours per area, when it was current. I did it extremely casually between other content I was into, yet enjoyed every second of it.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

I don't really clamor for all the Scions to be gone, I doubt I'd enjoy that all that much. But is one or two not being there for a quest or two too much to ask? People speak a lot of guff about them not all being present at one time, but at least one or two of them is nearly always present with nearly no breaks. I don't personally feel this way, but I don't blame those who are sick of them. Variety is the spice of life after all, and Zero can only cover so much ground in that regard.

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It isn't that I hate them. It's that I feel their individual story arcs are mostly completed, and with the end of the world avoided, I feel continuing with a Scions heavy storyline would just be more of the same thing.

In fact, I think the developers painted themselves in a corner with EW. What can the WoL do to top saving the entire Universe? Suggesting some warlord in the void world is somehow a threat to the person who beat the most powerful threat in all existence is downright silly.

I know it's just a game but there's got to be some logic involved in the storyline.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I feel continuing with a Scions heavy storyline would just be more of the same thing.

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I think so too. They can still be there, retired, but we need a new gang in a new place.

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What can the WoL due to top saving the entire Universe?

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It's because it's a Final Fantasy game. In Final Fantasy games, you save the world or the universe. This has been what it leads to in any Final Fantasy game I have played. So Yoshi-P feels that he has to match that fantasy and go with whatever will involve saving the world with the most fantasy he can find.

The downside of that is obvious. When they've saved the universe, anything else seems like retirement for the Warrior of Light. Saving a city from a local crime lord and their army? That is actually what the Warrior of Light will do as retirement when they are 80, and they will do it with only one hand blind-folded, just to even the odds.

But it's not as if I haven't started a new story before by playing other games or watching other films, and sometimes the unfamiliar can temporarily be challenging even to the greatest hero until they adapt. So maybe we will find something of lesser threat to be challenging at first, then we'll see how it moves and defeat it. Like everything else. I am certain that will be how they explain it because that is how they explained it in Stormblood. Zenos wouldn't normally be a threat to us, but the resonant was unfamiliar to us so it took us a bit to adapt to it, but then we defeated him like all the rest.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Could argue that other Eureka areas were "more of the same". More NMs, another big boss that drops an important item, a level cap increase.

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I think that brand new maps and bosses are better than new glam set and few new materials, which are effectively just a bunch of .jpgs and some item descriptions. We'll see what new updates brings, but so far, it's really barebones. I was hoping for new features or new map area, not just more of the same. But I honestly don't think I can really enjoy IS anymore. Reaching rank 10 killed it for me, since flying just completely ruins any immersion.

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V&C have the real story I suppose.

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Can't comment on that, I just skimmed through most of it.

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So then neither is most of the loot in Eureka.

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Most of the loot in Eureka is logograms and gil from bunnies. Rare items are just sprinkles on top. Unfortunately, plenty of content in the game only has these sprinkles.

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All the ones to feed animals, sow seeds, gather things, the V&C dot, mitigation, heals and rez. They aren't as spectacular as logos or lost actions, but they involve similar development. We could argue all the individual items and plants we pick and grow are using similar development work, because icons are made for them.

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I would really not call feeding an animal "special action". As for V&C actions, yes, they are simply bland and give no creativity, it doesn't matter they involve "similar development", they're hardly comparable on what they bring to a table.

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I agree. Although it does depend. You have to run Variant dungeons multiple times for the mount and can farm them for the minions and other rewards. You have a lot of Criterion runs to do if you want the mount. But I agree it's not the same as having lots of relics to do making the content replayable. They are also really boring to repeat, especially Variant dungeons (I gave up and just bought the minions).

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All we can hope is that they will fix those rewards. It's such a shame that good content died because they expected that people will be happy to run content just for the hell of it. On the flipside, I haven't see many people claiming that "content needs no rewards" since V&C released.