AT THIS POINT in World of Warcraft

Pretty sure this is forums about FFXIV and now WOW. Quit comparing FFXIV to WOW there totally two different styles of games.

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

Hmm, I wonder which MMO had a similar trend to this.

https://i.ibb.co/BPndMP9/1682027091017.png

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https://i.giphy.com/media/10fxZavhBFXsUE/giphy.webp

Me Checking out this Weeks Drama on the FFXIV Forums.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Pretty sure this is forums about FFXIV and now WOW. Quit comparing FFXIV to WOW there totally two different styles of games.

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Both are an MMO, and even if they differ at a lot of things, looking at each other cant harm. It can improve your own game. Sure, some things you dont want to change as they defined your game, but there are a lot of aspects. And there are definitely a few points where wow is better. Motivating SE to implement similar things is therefor something we should do. And what better way to have a clear example called WoW in this case?

CoD and CS are both also very diffirent, but even they can look at each other (and did) for improvements. As for example matchmaking, map design, weapon design/handling, interfaces, communication etc are all aspects that exist in both.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Pretty sure this is forums about FFXIV and now WOW. Quit comparing FFXIV to WOW there totally two different styles of games.

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This is community forum. We can talk even about ultima online if we want to. And as Ukcs said - Never be blind to other games. Try em. Figure out what gives you fun. World of Warcraft, when it started was great, because it basically stole the best things from other games and leaved the bad stuff behind. Its normal for games to borrow ideas. Thats why A Realm Reborn devs were literally made to play WOW Cataclysm for rebuilding their MMO. So we are playing basically WOW copy, which started living its own life.

Yes, the talent changes are cool, and dragonriding was fun, but it's still the same game it's always been. The community still stinks and is extra mean if you're new to something; too much power goes into gear, which is gated by a lot of RNG, and there is still absolutely nothing for casual and social players to do.

The gameplay was always fast-paced, and the combat was also great (especially healing). That's not the reason so many people quit. I understand FF players are burned out, but that doesn't make the game bad, and it doesn't make WoW better.

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Originally Posted by R041

They said they play both. Both have positives and negatives. But some feel XIV has just a few more negatives in this current expac cycle for casual vets. It's not rocket surgery buddy.
Do you play other games? I bet you do. They don't have to be MMOs, but I bet you play something else and can make comparisons to some degree while also enjoying both.

Are you people exhausted with this dumb take? I see it too often, and nobody asked.

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I feel like if there was some difficulty, or stats actually mattered more, if jobs had a job identity then I think it would be more exciting but after the story Endwalker is pretty bland now. I hope the next expac does better because if it continues like this I doubt many people will stay

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except that what actually destroyed WoW was the switch from casual-focused gaming to going all-in on the toxic cesspool that is M+/E-sports, and then finished it off with terrible storytelling in several expansions. By contrast, FFXIV is maintaining its focus on casual players first and foremost, and both ShB and EW are widely praised for the quality of their stories (you have to go outside the little negative echo chamber here to see it, but it's practically the rest of the entire internet).

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Tell me you haven't played casually over those expansions without telling me you haven't played casually over those expansions.

What came out at the same time as M+? Some of the largest degrees of casually-accessible catch-up gear, a granular and infinite means of progression available to all stratums of engagement with content and which with decay in value as gear advantage increased, content additions disproportionately of use to casual players (4 post-cap zones in Legion, World Quests being added to the game), purely for fun side-content (an entire chapter of the main storyline via Suramar, Wretched Training, etc.)...

The breadth and depth of content available to players who enjoyed more combat-gameplay-centric content increased, yes... but so did the content available to those who more enjoyed the open world, puzzles, questing, soft progression, etc., in equal measure.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tell me you haven't played casually over those expansions without telling me you haven't played casually over those expansions.

What came out at the same time as M+? Some of the largest degrees of casually-accessible catch-up gear, a granular and infinite means of progression available to all stratums of engagement with content and which with decay in value as gear advantage increased, content additions disproportionately of use to casual players (4 post-cap zones in Legion, World Quests being added to the game), purely for fun side-content (an entire chapter of the main storyline via Suramar, Wretched Training, etc.)...

The breadth and depth of content available to players who enjoyed more combat-gameplay-centric content increased, yes... but so did the content available to those who more enjoyed the open world, puzzles, questing, soft progression, etc., in equal measure.

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Well, given how I did in fact play casually over those expansions, the issue might lie with you making the classic blunder of "correlation != causation." M+ is what caused ActiBlizz to go all-in on the eSports approach, which in turn shot toxicity through the roof. Should I say that if you actually played through those expansions, you'd have known that the "catch-up" mechanics were always too late and still too inferior to feasibly allow casual players to jump back in later in an expansion? ;)

For me FFXIV has gotten to the point it has gotten so easy and mind numbingly dull that I await a better MMO to come along. I want a MMO that actually has class/job identity and lore. A good story, remarkable worthwhile dungeons and raids. I want a MMO that has a better character customization whereas FFXIV is barebones customizable. When I complete something that is relatively difficulted I want an awesome reward for it. I am looking for a MMO that is more balanced in regard to hardcore and casual. FFXIV leans more casual and just makes most of everything so easy just to grab people for money. Lately FFXIV feels like FFXIV loafer edition with most people loafing around.

Even the jobs are mediocre in FFXIV. Instead of having a ninja be a spoof of Naruto make it be like a ninja. Poison blades, mist you know a actual ninja that was uses DoT's and feels more like a assassin. Give Machinist more automata to command to make it feel like a true Machinist like make flamethrower a machine that you plant and it spews out fire while you go back and keep attacking, Give Summoner more summons then Titan, Ifrit and Garuda. Maybe after Bahamut and use those three then summon Phoenix we can use Leviathan, Ramuh and Shiva. Make the jobs more enticing and excitable then the mindless dribble we got right now.

I been playing since 2014 and over the years they just have been slowly taking things out but not really putting anything in that really makes a impact. Where is the creativity that used to be there? Where is the love that they had once for the game? The things they do implement doesn't really have much of a impact. For instance Island Sanctuary sounded good on paper but when in practice fell very short. It feels like more of a mini Diadem where we all though it was going to be a place for our character to relax. That's why if I see a MMO that eventually comes out and has a good story, great jobs to play as, good difficulty and casual balance, a better housing system better dungeons and raids, better character customization then I more then likely would migrate to that and I am sure many others would. I feel like FFXIV feels like competition isn't big enough so they can relax but if a new MMO comes out and can go toe toe with FFXIV then it would be a game changer on keeping players.

OF catboys really hit different

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tell me you haven't played casually over those expansions without telling me you haven't played casually over those expansions.

What came out at the same time as M+? Some of the largest degrees of casually-accessible catch-up gear, a granular and infinite means of progression available to all stratums of engagement with content and which with decay in value as gear advantage increased, content additions disproportionately of use to casual players (4 post-cap zones in Legion, World Quests being added to the game), purely for fun side-content (an entire chapter of the main storyline via Suramar, Wretched Training, etc.)...

The breadth and depth of content available to players who enjoyed more combat-gameplay-centric content increased, yes... but so did the content available to those who more enjoyed the open world, puzzles, questing, soft progression, etc., in equal measure.

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In the same expansion, they made profession recipes drop in dungeons, introduced borrowed power in the form of artifact weapons and legendaries, and gutted PvP customization with the introduction of templates. The thing is, if hardcore players are playing a grindy mess, it's even worse for casual players who don't want to grind because there's no way they'll ever catch up, and that's exactly what Legion's release was. Yes, they "fixed" some of the grinds on the last content patch, which is what they have done for years, and that is why so many people quit because they were getting sick of Blizzard's formula of releasing crappy content and then "fixing" it as the expansion progressed. WoW just has the illusion of better and longer-lasting casual content because it's so grindy, but it's not even close to what FFXIV has to offer. The endgame is a different story, however.

WoW was able to milk the community for nearly 20 years.....

......No MMO in history will be able to accomplish that feat imo.

XIV's rise started, when? 2019-ish? Nearly 20 years from then, the League of Legends MMO will probably be dominating the landscape......or WoW 2, maybe that Warframe title as-well. XIV has been losing players now; WoW was dominate with BS content for nearly 2 decades.

I have no idea how they did it......

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Originally Posted by MonsutaMan

WoW was able to milk the community for nearly 20 years.....

......No MMO in history will be able to accomplish that feat imo.

XIV's rise started, when? 2019-ish? Nearly 20 years from then, the League of Legends MMO will probably be dominating the landscape......or WoW 2, maybe that Warframe title as-well. XIV has been losing players now; WoW was dominate with BS content for nearly 2 decades.

I have no idea how they did it......

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Because WoW has been around for a VERY long time. To the point its become a Full On Culture.
I dont think any other MMO will ever match that Feat. I guess the only way FFXIV could meet that energy and Fan-Loyalty, is if they made books to tell stories that arnt explained in the game.
I think Garlamald and Acsian Stories would sell pretty well.

Maybe even Lore-Dives, or even Tales of the 1st Shard.
Explore other stories separated from the WoL and characters of the Source.

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Originally Posted by MonsutaMan

WoW was able to milk the community for nearly 20 years.....

......No MMO in history will be able to accomplish that feat imo.

XIV's rise started, when? 2019-ish? Nearly 20 years from then, the League of Legends MMO will probably be dominating the landscape......or WoW 2, maybe that Warframe title as-well. XIV has been losing players now; WoW was dominate with BS content for nearly 2 decades.

I have no idea how they did it......

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Dont think we should call out other games for BS content when we constantly get dead-on-arrival content like Island Sanctuary and Variant Dungeons. FF14 is probably the most "put minimal effort" MMO on the market.

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Originally Posted by MonsutaMan

WoW was able to milk the community for nearly 20 years.....

......No MMO in history will be able to accomplish that feat imo.

XIV's rise started, when? 2019-ish? Nearly 20 years from then, the League of Legends MMO will probably be dominating the landscape......or WoW 2, maybe that Warframe title as-well. XIV has been losing players now; WoW was dominate with BS content for nearly 2 decades.

I have no idea how they did it......

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Psychology.


Also, I will definitely be playing FF14 20 years from now if the story is good. I still play the mainline entries when they come out if the story is good. The franchise itself has been going for 30+ years. 14 will eventually reach a point where it can't update its mechanics to "stay current" enough for a lot of people, but WoW does demonstrate both that you can stretch an old engine more than you think you can, and also that being the next hot new thing doesn't have to matter when you actually do the thing that people liked about you well. They've only gotten in trouble when they stopped doing the latter.

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Originally Posted by MonsutaMan

WoW was able to milk the community for nearly 20 years.....

......No MMO in history will be able to accomplish that feat imo.

XIV's rise started, when? 2019-ish? Nearly 20 years from then, the League of Legends MMO will probably be dominating the landscape......or WoW 2, maybe that Warframe title as-well. XIV has been losing players now; WoW was dominate with BS content for nearly 2 decades.

I have no idea how they did it......

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Compared to its contemporaries when Vanilla WoW was released, it was a massive step forward in what an MMO could do. Look up some of the really old MMOs to see what they were like. Unfortunately, WoW has never really moved on from that stage, it just has so much inertia that it stays around.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Compared to its contemporaries when Vanilla WoW was released, it was a massive step forward in what an MMO could do. Look up some of the really old MMOs to see what they were like. Unfortunately, WoW has never really moved on from that stage, it just has so much inertia that it stays around.

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That's crazy talk, WoW is so ahead of every MMO in terms of server/instance and coop tech - I don't know if anyone's catching up anytime soon. XIV especially is still 10 years behind there.

They've made it feel like no matter what you're doing there's always people around, and the systems are extremely casual friendly and open ended.

We can sit here and blame it on it being an old MMO, but it doesn't feel old in Dragonflight.

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Originally Posted by Donoman

In the same expansion, they...

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made profession recipes drop in dungeons

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Dungeon recipes also dropped from world quests and rep. It was also far from the first time dungeons dropped recipes; the difference was merely that it affected upgrades rather than even the base item being restricted to the dungeon-dropped recipe, etc.

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introduced borrowed power in the form of artifact weapons and legendaries

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First off, let's not pretend borrowed power is any different in itself from any other sort of temporary power (which is, of course all of it... from Tier Sets to Blessed Blade of the Windseeker to WotLK's ICC catch-up legendary sword) except in that they tend to offer less RNG-dependent customization by taking some power from gear alone to sub-systems akin to talents. It's not as if you're going to hold onto the previous expansion's tier sets over gear from the next expansion's first raid, or even take the first raid's tier over the second unless the latter is cripplingly bugged.

Artifact Weapons and Legendaries (which were disproportionately dropped by open world content; to the point I got my second just doing Argos before my Maw-spamming friends got their first from M+), as a form of gear inflation, helped equalize ilvls across stratums. Both increased the relative power available to players who did only casual content as the rewards scaled poorly with increased difficulty. The only groups to lose out from Artifact Weapons were those who simply played very few hours.

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The thing is, if hardcore players are playing a grindy mess, it's even worse for casual players who don't want to grind because there's no way they'll ever catch up, and that's exactly what Legion's release was.

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Let's not confuse a massively diminishing returns to the point of basically soft-capping progress with if someone wants to milk a 0.2% advantage over others for 300x the AP of the same flat bonus (at the time, a hugely larger relative bonus) at earlier times... with a necessarily "grindy mess" for all.

If XIV gave you means to, for infinitely upgrade your relic weapon at 1 item ilvl at a time, but for double the work every item level, would the game instantly become a "grindy mess" just because a few might take the game up on that opportunity well beyond any time-efficient extent? When it takes 5% of the grind to get 80+% of the bonus held by any no-lifer, how is that "even worse for casual players"?

You can dislike that the carrot is being hung there at all (rather than catch-up mechanics being included at fixed item levels and on a fixed release schedule whereby casual players are encouraged and then, in relative terms, discouraged from playing based on the recency of their release), but it at worst that system only hurts the truly obsessive min-maxers; by itself, because AP's resultant power growth diminished sharply with height of said power, far more so than M+ or weekly raid farms even when considering the relative waste faced in nearing BiS, AP was largely a catch-up mechanic. You can call it grindy, because it always gave people something to do, but at its core it was not "unfriendly" to those who didn't care to do the harder parts of combat content; it just gave everyone a lot more available to do.

By all means, there's a ton to criticize, but those reasons don't particularly pan out.

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Yes, they "fixed" some of the grinds on the last content patch, which is what they have done for years, and that is why so many people quit because they were getting sick of Blizzard's formula of releasing crappy content and then "fixing" it as the expansion progressed.

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Now that is a good point. Trying something new every expansion from Legion until Dragonflight meant that the new things usually started off very flawed. I'm still not sure though that I'd consider that worse than literally just never trying in the first place, though.

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WoW just has the illusion of better and longer-lasting casual content because it's so grindy, but it's not even close to what FFXIV has to offer. The endgame is a different story, however.

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It doesn't even any attempt any such illusion until endgame, though? Leveling takes only 5-10 hours and gives you complete freedom to go for whatever expansions/storylines one wants until reaching the newest expansions' levels. If anything, it's a plethora of content that pretends to be next to nothing.

And at endgame, even if we ignore M+, WoW has just as high a release rate of boss fights (e.g., combining ARs, NRs, SRs, and Trials), atop typically including whole new zones each major patch, something we haven't seen here since Stormblood with Anemos. Like Eureka, they haven't all been great, but it's difficult to point any particular XIV metric, fairly compare it to WoW, and say "yeah, WoW's just producing way less content," even when ignoring a M20 does indeed feel very different from a normal dungeon.

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Originally Posted by MonsutaMan

WoW was able to milk the community for nearly 20 years.....

......No MMO in history will be able to accomplish that feat imo.

XIV's rise started, when? 2019-ish? Nearly 20 years from then, the League of Legends MMO will probably be dominating the landscape......or WoW 2, maybe that Warframe title as-well. XIV has been losing players now; WoW was dominate with BS content for nearly 2 decades.

I have no idea how they did it......

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It was released at the right time, at the right space in the gaming genre, whereas previous MMOs were complex, hard and not very casual friendly. Vanilla WoW was the first of its kind to offer a friendlier take on the genre with streamlining a lot of core aspects of MMOs. Also the fact that the game served as an easy and fun way to communicate and socialize with friends and other people compared to previous MMOs made it have such a strong staying power.

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Originally Posted by PikoAliapoh

What's really funny is how all of the WoW type complaints started happening with XIV when everyone left WoW and migrated to this game. Would be really interesting if someone could pull forum data and correlate complaints about savage, ultimates, and high-end raiding content with the WoW exodus. I'd expect there's some kind of statistically significant correlation.

XIV's never been about having max. ilvl for end game content. It's always been accessible to a wide range of skillsets and players, but there's been such an emphasis on that stuff in the forums ever since ShB/EW.

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Oh that's just silly. People have been saying that the expansion cycle is extremely formulaic and boring for several expansions now. It has only gotten worse with time.

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Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang

I feel like if there was some difficulty, or stats actually mattered more, if jobs had a job identity then I think it would be more exciting but after the story Endwalker is pretty bland now. I hope the next expac does better because if it continues like this I doubt many people will stay

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It's just not gonna happen. These optimizations were 10 years in the making. Slowly gutted from ARR.

Yoshi is making no attempt at creating complex combat. Next expac, we might not even have combat tbh. lol

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Originally Posted by R041

It's just not gonna happen. These optimizations were 10 years in the making. Slowly gutted from ARR.

Yoshi is making no attempt at creating complex combat. Next expac, we might not even have combat tbh. lol

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And the naysayers will still be right here, saying the same things, paying the same sub. It's like people pay just to complain. Never stops making me laugh.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

And the naysayers will still be right here, saying the same things, paying the same sub. It's like people pay just to complain. Never stops making me laugh.

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I don't play for the combat, but for those that do? They won't stick around.

If you think I survived this long playing while the combat/dungeons just gets worse and worse over the years, you're nuts. I basically just play the auction house. lol

It's funny how you think that's some sorta gotcha. You actually believe WoW players hopped over here and went "Woah, the rotations are so fun and engaging!" - Most of them are already gone and back to WoW, maybe they got a house here but only login once a week. If it was so engaging, we'd actually have a lively world. Instead people just do their Roulettes just to do them, check their Retainers, then log off.

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Originally Posted by R041

I don't play for the combat, but for those that do? They won't stick around.

If you think I survived this long playing while the combat/dungeons just gets worse and worse over the years, you're nuts. I basically just play the auction house. lol

It's funny how you think that's some sorta gotcha. You actually believe WoW players hopped over here and went "Woah, the rotations are so fun and engaging!" - Most of them are already gone and back to WoW, maybe they got a house here but only login once a week. If it was so engaging, we'd actually have a lively world. Instead people just do their Roulettes just to do them, check their Retainers, then log off.

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Lmao people don't realize that a lot of the naysayers just flat out quit. There's a reason why the naysayers on the forums are "newer" people (including those who might have joined the forums early but only recently started naysaying) while the defenders have been on the forums for years. Many of the defenders have literally been the same people for 3 or 4 years by my count now. The naysayers just quietly cycle out eventually.

Well, it is normal to leave something you don't like, isn't it?

And combat is fine. I enjoy the mechanics they hit us with in group content and I don't die in landscape pve unless I get stupid, so I think the game is just fine and that's why I'm still here. /shrug Different strokes.

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Originally Posted by R041

I don't play for the combat, but for those that do? They won't stick around

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You don’t? (Looking at post history)

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Originally Posted by R041

If you think I survived this long playing while the combat/dungeons just gets worse and worse over the years, you're nuts. I basically just play the auction house. lol

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You do? (Looking at post history)

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

You don’t? (Looking at post history)



You do? (Looking at post history)

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I dont know how spineless someone has to be to play the race treated by the devs as a joke and you still defend them.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

You don’t? (Looking at post history)

You do? (Looking at post history)

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Where in my post history does it say I actually do garbage like Roulettes today? I stopped touching 90% of combat content in XIV after Stormblood outside of day 1 MSQ/Normal Raid. Can't even get queues to pop for the things that are actually enjoyable, it's all repeating garbage hallways, Praetorium, and CT. That's on top of the classes themselves being completely mundane now.

There are other games out there that do a better job of that, which is why I've managed to stay relatively sane the past 5 years. lol

My days are typically spent sitting around making gil off of AH because nothing else is even remotely engaging. That's my content now. Well, was - I login maybe once every 1-2 weeks now.

You make it seem like I can't finish all content we get each patch cycle within a single day or less with almost 0 effort involved. And I wouldn't consider doing MSQ content once every 4 months as me 'playing for the combat'.

Now WoW? I would say I play for the combat. Which is why when WoW players started playing XIV, they were likely looking for something in particular, in the wrong place. I just don't think WoW players want to AFK in Limsa 11 months out of the year.

Zzzzzz

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

I dont know how spineless someone has to be to play the race treated by the devs as a joke and you still defend them.

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Yeah right. If there's a cristicism, you HAVE to agree with it. Otherwise you're defending the game. I'm not interested in being a collective Hivemind, thank you.

by the way, I consider people paying for products they don't like SPINELESS

I like FFXIV.
Thats why I still pay my Sub, and Still play it.

But the Forums are a miserable place, and on occasion funny to visit.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I like FFXIV.
Thats why I still pay my Sub, and Still play it.

But the Forums are a miserable place, and on occasion funny to visit.

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Probably why they don't seem keen on the job feedback left here (other than the fact that how some ppl word their stuff comes off super rude)