Respect the pull timer.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

a console player could write 'wait' doesnt take long... or even make a macro. to indicate he needs time to write more.
doesnt matter how you play, as soon as you play together with other people you have to be able to communicate with them

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thats true, unless the rest of the party is on the move constantly. I normally like to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to just casual stuff like dungeons, raids or trials. Savage though yeah you need to at least be able to communicate.

it doesnt really matter what content. if you consider dungeons casual content then you wont need to communicate. but if you're new, limited in some way or belong to the weaker player then you'll have to communicate in dungeons as well.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Without speaking up I will simply assume the worse and seek a replacement.

I will make my own assumptions based off my past experiences.

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That’s definitely a YOU problem. Shame you feel the need to dismiss a player who simply made a mistake and may potentially be learning because of something you haven’t learned to heal from.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

That’s definitely a YOU problem. Shame you feel the need to dismiss a player who simply made a mistake and may potentially be learning because of something you haven’t learned to heal from.

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Shame on me? How am I supposed to know they are new and needed help? I asked, and I got no answer. In the end could have been avoided if they just bought a simple $10-15 dollar keyboard off amazon, or simply said something like sorry new while dead, or had preset macros with phrases like New, still adjusting. Many things could have been done on their part. Yet none of these attempts were made so yeah I assumed the worse. Cause if they could not take the time out prior to run to setup macros, buy a cheap keyboard, or even during the run simply write out "Sorry New" why should we deal with it? Remember, you cannot kick someone until 5 min has passed, that means they had 5 min to say sorry new at the very least. Sure some are more patient, I am not.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

You know there is the possibility of them being a console player. Typing with a controller is just tricky and I imagine not a lot of people know how to properly do it.

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I also know there is the possibility they were trying to leech off the group, they could have easily said something during the time they were dead.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

thats true, unless the rest of the party is on the move constantly. I normally like to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to just casual stuff like dungeons, raids or trials. Savage though yeah you need to at least be able to communicate.

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I can respect that, personally not a fan of giving someone a pass because the content can be done with only two people. Just because something is easy does not mean a player should get a pass imo. That said, if they spoke up this would not have been an issue, for whatever reason any lack of communion shows they do nor respect the time of others. As stated a console player easily could have macros setup, sure it would take time out to setup said macros without a keyboard but it is a one and done thing. Have ones that say they are on console with no keyboard, that they are new, that they would like explanations etc . . . may take a couple of hours but hey once your done your done. If they cannot be bothered to make an attempt, I cannot be bothered to give them the benefit of the doubt and simply let it slide.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Shame on me? How am I supposed to know they are new and needed help? I asked, and I got no answer. In the end could have been avoided if they just bought a simple $10-15 dollar keyboard off amazon, or simply said something like sorry new while dead, or had preset macros with phrases like New, still adjusting. Many things could have been done on their part. Yet none of these attempts were made so yeah I assumed the worse. Cause if they could not take the time out prior to run to setup macros, buy a cheap keyboard, or even during the run simply write out "Sorry New" why should we deal with it? Remember, you cannot kick someone until 5 min has passed, that means they had 5 min to say sorry new at the very least. Sure some are more patient, I am not.



I also know there is the possibility they were trying to leech off the group, they could have easily said something during the time they were dead.

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Or… you could be patient. Give people the benefit of the doubt. See if they learn when given advice. People shouldn’t need to spend money to appease you. Shouldn’t feel pressured to be social if they don’t want to. You also shouldn’t br kicking at the first sign of a struggle which is what you suggest you are doing.

Trolls are obvious. Screwing up a mechanic or not understanding something does not equal trolling. Slow down. Stay calm and lay off the vote kick just cause you’ve had “previous experiences” which also may just be you reading into something that isn’t actually there

I... kinda relate on Bobby66 a lot on that specific circumstance.

It's not the norm, but when it happens, it's very frustrating when all we wanted is to communicate so we can ensure a better chance to complete the duty. Silence is not equal to trolling, not participating, that's true. But it's also not equal to participating and cooperating. It's up in the air. Each wipes contributes to the tension and that silence can be taken the wrong way, just as a poor communication can do. These wipes can happen even in normal contents.

Try getting 1-2 silent DPSes that does not focus the adds in correct order in Innocence Normal without shield healers. (you will die to excessive slash resistance debuff)
Try getting unresponsive tanks who do not perform LB3 to get through a12n, Endsinger, and/or Seat of Sacrifice. (you will die to their ultimate raidwide)
Try getting muted tanks that had no clue which add they needed to grab attention from in Titania Normal.

Maybe they don't respond but somehow do it correctly at next attempt? Great! Bravado! But what if they attempt the same approach and wiped the party again (and again) with no sign of response and/or improvements? At that point it's either vote to dismiss, or use the door yourselves.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Or… you could be patient. Give people the benefit of the doubt. See if they learn when given advice. People shouldn’t need to spend money to appease you. Shouldn’t feel pressured to be social if they don’t want to. You also shouldn’t br kicking at the first sign of a struggle which is what you suggest you are doing.

Trolls are obvious. Screwing up a mechanic or not understanding something does not equal trolling. Slow down. Stay calm and lay off the vote kick just cause you’ve had “previous experiences” which also may just be you reading into something that isn’t actually there

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My edited point addresses the whole benefit of the doubt thing.

"I can respect that, personally not a fan of giving someone a pass because the content can be done with only two people. Just because something is easy does not mean a player should get a pass imo. That said, if they spoke up this would not have been an issue, for whatever reason any lack of communion shows they do nor respect the time of others. As stated a console player easily could have macros setup, sure it would take time out to setup said macros without a keyboard but it is a one and done thing. Have ones that say they are on console with no keyboard, that they are new, that they would like explanations etc . . . may take a couple of hours but hey once your done your done. If they cannot be bothered to make an attempt, I cannot be bothered to give them the benefit of the doubt and simply let it slide."

Goes both ways I should not be pressured to be patient, and more understanding.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

My edited point addresses the whole benefit of the doubt thing.

"I can respect that, personally not a fan of giving someone a pass because the content can be done with only two people. Just because something is easy does not mean a player should get a pass imo. That said, if they spoke up this would not have been an issue, for whatever reason any lack of communion shows they do nor respect the time of others. As stated a console player easily could have macros setup, sure it would take time out to setup said macros without a keyboard but it is a one and done thing. Have ones that say they are on console with no keyboard, that they are new, that they would like explanations etc . . . may take a couple of hours but hey once your done your done. If they cannot be bothered to make an attempt, I cannot be bothered to give them the benefit of the doubt and simply let it slide."

Goes both ways I should not be pressured to be patient, and more understanding.

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Again, and last time as it’s going to continue to be back and forth between us. A person is not obligated to speak to you. It’s not because they don’t respect you or your time. Some people just don’t want to be social. Some may not see the justification in purchasing a keyboard to be social when they aren’t playing a game for that reason. Just because you have a keyboard and want to talk or deem it necessary for a person to explain why they made any mistake to you, does not mean they see it that way.

People may not respond for many reasons. Could be an introvert. Maybe they don’t speak a certain language. Or they could be illiterate. I’ve played with a couple where the husband couldn’t read and his wife would speak for him if she was on.

You don’t know why people won’t talk. Nor is it necessarily your business. But because they don’t appease your standard for social interaction, you remove them.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Again, and last time as it’s going to continue to be back and forth between us. A person is not obligated to speak to you. It’s not because they don’t respect you or your time. Some people just don’t want to be social. Some may not see the justification in purchasing a keyboard to be social when they aren’t playing a game for that reason. Just because you have a keyboard and want to talk or deem it necessary for a person to explain why they made any mistake to you, does not mean they see it that way.

People may not respond for many reasons. Could be an introvert. Maybe they don’t speak a certain language. Or they could be illiterate. I’ve played with a couple where the husband couldn’t read and his wife would speak for him if she was on.

You don’t know why people won’t talk. Nor is it necessarily your business. But because they don’t appease your standard for social interaction, you remove them.

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Then it is fair to say I am not obligated to play with them, so what exactly is your issue? If they are not obligated to do something to appease others, why should I be obligated to do something to appease others? Also, has less to do with my standards for social interactions, idc if someone does not talk, but if they start to screw up and we as a group ask if everything is okay and get no response at that point it is direct negative impact on the other three people in the group. I rather say shit in dungeons, often not even a hello, but if I am new to something I let the group know right off the rip, so they can curb their expectations. Has less to do with a social standard, or more so simply being considerate to the three, or seven other people in the group. Though that is the issue I have noticed in FFXIV, for some reason the needs of the minatory seem to have greater value then the majority if the group simply because the content is easier.

As you said sure they may not respond for different reasons and that is fine, but when a person starts to make mistakes that end up costing others time, do not be shocked if being silent gets one removed especially if the group knows the silent one is making the mistake.

While, I would not remove a player for being new, if a group wanted to remove me for being new I would not have an issue. Not everyone is entitled to the time of others.

As a console player, I can say for certain that it's not really that bad with the on screen keyboard. I've called out plenty of people only to get ignored. That's a kick from me, idgaf what your excuse is. Anyone defending it is making up reason for people to troll over others. It's not being an introvert, there's the auto translate so another language is just a lie, if they are illiterate they shouldn't be playing a game the requires this much reading. If they're the problem and refuse to respond, then they deserve the kick.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Again, and last time as it’s going to continue to be back and forth between us. A person is not obligated to speak to you. It’s not because they don’t respect you or your time. Some people just don’t want to be social. Some may not see the justification in purchasing a keyboard to be social when they aren’t playing a game for that reason. Just because you have a keyboard and want to talk or deem it necessary for a person to explain why they made any mistake to you, does not mean they see it that way.

People may not respond for many reasons. Could be an introvert. Maybe they don’t speak a certain language. Or they could be illiterate. I’ve played with a couple where the husband couldn’t read and his wife would speak for him if she was on.

You don’t know why people won’t talk. Nor is it necessarily your business. But because they don’t appease your standard for social interaction, you remove them.

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Actually its a mmorpg so you do have to be social as you are queuing to do content with people. Get your weird antisocial behaviour off of a mmorpg if you dont like it or dont use df. Also, If you have extreme personal reasons to not be able to do content then get people who are patient to do it your way or a pf stating as such so you arent being rude to randoms.

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

Actually its a mmorpg so you do have to be social as you are queuing to do content with people. Get your weird antisocial behaviour off of a mmorpg if you dont like it or dont use df. Also, If you have extreme personal reasons to not be able to do content then get people who are patient to do it your way or a pf stating as such so you arent being rude to randoms.

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Actually an mmo only requires you to play with others to complete content. But even that is changing with this game as they are making more and more duties available with trusts. Mind you these are changes I’m not a fan of as many old dungeons have become overly simplified.
Now I personally have no issue talking to people. Even with my keyboards usb somehow mangled, I’ll find a way. But not everyone has to talk. Get over it. With the response you gave, frankly, I’d understand someone not wanting to converse.

Edit: Why the double the standard? Do you feel people are entitled to the time of others?

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I do not get it at the core you are saying people are not obligated to meet the standards of others, yet you seem to feel that people should just suck it up and deal with the issues of others? Why the double standard?

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I honestly don’t understand what you are referring to. But I’ll do my best to answer in a way to clarify my stance.

People don’t have to communicate. A person not talking is not a troll nor a reason to kick someone.
However. I also don’t think an excuse has to be made to not want to play with someone. Difference of play style has been an accepted / approved reason to remove someone from a duty.
You don’t have to play with anyone you don’t want to, just cut the crap. Again I’ll refer to saying someone is a troll just for making a mistake and not responding to it. You think they aren’t good enough to play with you? Fine. Gone with them. Just say it as it is

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

I honestly don’t understand what you are referring to. But I’ll do my best to answer in a way to clarify my stance.

People don’t have to communicate. A person not talking is not a troll nor a reason to kick someone.
However. I also don’t think an excuse has to be made to not want to play with someone. Difference of play style has been an accepted / approved reason to remove someone from a duty.
You don’t have to play with anyone you don’t want to, just cut the crap. Again I’ll refer to saying someone is a troll just for making a mistake and not responding to it. You think they aren’t good enough to play with you? Fine. Gone with them. Just say it as it is

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Thing is I only thought of them as a troll because they gave me no other reason not to think of them as such. As mentioned I would not kick a player that is new, or is trying but they need to vocalize that, they cannot make an assumption that the group will know for what reason they are struggling. The double standard is regarding standards is that it seems you feel I should be more understanding towards the circumstance of others, yet for some reason do not think the person who is not talking should not be more understanding to the circumstances of those in their party.

As mentioned I came to the conclusion that they were a troll / not participating because when given a chance to say what was up, they offered nothing. That is behavior of a troll or someone that simply does not care after being called out for a mistake, and asking if everything was okay. Just seems like a double standard to me. I have no issue playing with new people, or helping out others that want the help. If someone does not speak up how is the group to know they need help, especially when asked after making a mistake. IDK it seems you feel like this is more people not wanting to have a conversation, has nothing to do with that. I rarely speak in dungeons myself, I get people may have reasons for not speaking thing is when the player who has those reasons starts to negatively impact the group the burden is on them to clear up any misconceptions, not the other way around. I should not have to think of reasons to justify their actions, that should be 100% on them. IF they are unable to or unwilling to provide anything then imo they are not better than a troll,

I always respect because I like a good opener.

But generally I notice it's a good tank ready to MT that has the countdown going, and then it's the other tank jockey that uses their gap closer to pull immediately and ignore. Like you can tell who is the mid in this situation. Bonus points if they die to the first tank buster.

I just dont get the point of getting angry and upset at somebody unless theyre literally actively trolling in their play like non-stop without fail.

I cant know whats going behind each and everyone one you guys computer screen. Maybe something came up in the middle of the game, maybe you dropped your mountain dew and doritos into the keyboard, maybe your mommy or your daddy yanked your ear off the computer because it was time for bed or something idk.
So at least with me thats my reasoning for giving people the benefit of the doubt with thia kind of stuff.

This game is stupidly easy anyway, like who cares.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

, maybe you dropped your mountain dew and doritos into the keyboard, maybe your mommy or your daddy yanked your ear off the computer because it was time for bed or something idk.

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Finally a man that gets it

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I just dont get the point of getting angry and upset at somebody unless theyre literally actively trolling in their play like non-stop without fail.

I cant know whats going behind each and everyone one you guys computer screen. Maybe something came up in the middle of the game, maybe you dropped your mountain dew and doritos into the keyboard, maybe your mommy or your daddy yanked your ear off the computer because it was time for bed or something idk.
So at least with me thats my reasoning for giving people the benefit of the doubt with thia kind of stuff.

This game is stupidly easy anyway, like who cares.

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Obviously, things happen or there are potentially circumstances beyond someone's control. I also think that the approach that some have taken in this thread is a bit aggressive, to be sure. Personally, I'm more than willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, and communication really isn't much of an issue in lower end content like dungeons and such. My entire point though is that once someone enters a group setting, solo play is null and void. And depending on the content, communication is a must, hence my belief that a keyboard is necessary, though I do believe that having one is essential in general. Some may disagree with that, and that's fine, but I will not change my mind.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Obviously, things happen or there are potentially circumstances beyond someone's control. I also think that the approach that some have taken in this thread is a bit aggressive, to be sure. Personally, I'm more than willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, and communication really isn't much of an issue in lower end content like dungeons and such. My entire point though is that once someone enters a group setting, solo play is null and void. And depending on the content, communication is a must, hence my belief that a keyboard is necessary, though I do believe that having one is essential in general. Some may disagree with that, and that's fine, but I will not change my mind.

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Which to be honest, this is a fair point!

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I just dont get the point of getting angry and upset at somebody unless theyre literally actively trolling in their play like non-stop without fail.

I cant know whats going behind each and everyone one you guys computer screen. Maybe something came up in the middle of the game, maybe you dropped your mountain dew and doritos into the keyboard, maybe your mommy or your daddy yanked your ear off the computer because it was time for bed or something idk.
So at least with me thats my reasoning for giving people the benefit of the doubt with thia kind of stuff.

This game is stupidly easy anyway, like who cares.

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I understand, but for me anything that may prevent you from responding probably should take priority over some video game. Overall, I doubt anyone gets upset or angry over such things, and being removed from a party imo is hardly ever personal. I can understand why it may not bother people, it is not like missing one or two people is often enough to cause major issue, though for me the ease of content should not be an excuse to not value the time of others in the group. If I know I am going to be more then two min's I often just leave the group and eat my 30 min timer.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

If I know I am going to be more then two min's I often just leave the group and eat my 30 min timer.

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Yeah, I do the same. No sense in wasting their time or my own. I also don't join farm groups if I know I can't put at least a half hour to an hour in. It grinds my gears when someone joins a farm for like 3 clears and then leaves or joins for a WT clear when the PF ad specifically states it was forming a farm group. lol To me, that is disrespectful.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Yeah, I do the same. No sense in wasting their time or my own. I also don't join farm groups if I know I can't put at least a half hour to an hour in. It grinds my gears when someone joins a farm for like 3 clears and then leaves or joins for a WT clear when the PF ad specifically states it was forming a farm group. lol To me, that is disrespectful.

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Oh yeah I 100% agree, do the same also.

I very rarely see ready checks on Aether in DF content and pull timers are practically non-existent in casual content. We just pull and we handle things just fine. We will sometimes wait for newbies to watch cutscenes and sometimes we'll have some rudesby run in when cutscenes are mentioned. I see more waiting since Dynamis since people know new folks are coming over to get through mandatory group content like CT. If it's something that requires coordination then yeah we'll have them, but it's just kind of silly in NA to expect any sort of pull timer in casual content.

I think I've seen more players putting up timers when ask to wait vs players actually pre pulling before the timer goes off lol.