We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

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Originally Posted by DaddyHrothgar

You make it sound like our expectations are exceedingly impossible, but again...we just want them to use mitigations. And I encounter these tanks way too often for it to be a "non-issue".

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what's the solution then, not like they can police people who don't use mitigation and even if tutorial are forced doesn't mean people will pay attention to it.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

what's the solution then, not like they can police people who don't use mitigation and even if tutorial are forced doesn't mean people will pay attention to it.

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True, you can't report people who don't use their skills and would be ridiculous to make that into a rule. But you can report those that get hostile towards you for speaking up, or end up griefing you by running into the next wall-to-wall pull and then do nothing and take all the aoes.
The best thing to do is to ask them to use mitigations, and hope they listen. Maybe speaking up about this issue will get more people aware of this issue and change things, but that's a long shot.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I'd disagree with sentiment. Unless you're wall-to-wall pulling at those early-to-mid levels (which if you're just learning how to tank, you're probably not), I can easily see someone noticing no need whatsoever to use their main mitigation abilities on single trash packs. The change happens precisely when you both: A.) Get to higher levels, and B.) Wall-to-wall pull. For developing tanks, that may not be happening period until they're at a higher level, and all it usually takes is an actual polite recommendation to go ahead and use some of those mitigation tools on the trash, because when we pull multiple packs you'll find that the trash actually does more damage than the bosses.

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I don't see exactly how your reply relates to what i wrote, not to what sentiment you are referring to, unless you mean that a mid-level pack never has the occasion to do more than pulling a single pack.

If depends upon how you define "mid-level"- but if someone is learning to tanking then they probably do start to w2w by SB , at least to try to do so. So it isn't too much to expect them to know what those core skills are. it's up to you if you see that as a "recommendation" or more or a reminder, just as a tank who may have forgotten to put on their stance.

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Originally Posted by game_enjoyer

no, if someone not doing the mechanics is permissible than someone doing the mechanics is not "extra work" and honestly i'm beginning to believe the ytyp people don't exist because it's been 5 years and i haven't seen one.

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That’s basically the point, someone not doing mechanics shouldn’t be the expectation, this happens way too often

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Originally Posted by DaddyHrothgar

You make it sound like our expectations are exceedingly impossible, but again...we just want them to use mitigations. And I encounter these tanks way too often for it to be a "non-issue".

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This is my whole problem with threads like this, people so strongly fight against the idea that we just want people to press reprisal or rampart when they are tanking, or just press stone if there is no healing needed

People would rather tie themselves up in knots attempting to justify crap behaviour then actually try to fix it

It's the jump skips. As long as those are a thing in any game you will see high level players who absolutely don't have a clue about what they're doing. They shouldn't be allowed to jump straight into the newest expansion cold turkey with no system to teach them anything.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

It's the jump skips. As long as those are a thing in any game you will see high level players who absolutely don't have a clue about what they're doing. They shouldn't be allowed to jump straight into the newest expansion cold turkey with no system to teach them anything.

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I mean, sure this happened in WoW when they introduced skips but this time it's different! Give me a sec. I can tell you why. Any second now.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

It's the jump skips. As long as those are a thing in any game you will see high level players who absolutely don't have a clue about what they're doing. They shouldn't be allowed to jump straight into the newest expansion cold turkey with no system to teach them anything.

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That or they reaaally need to update the Hall of Novice to better teach current roles. I get that the initial trials are made very amateurish as possible for the sake of players whom have never touched an MMO, but it wouldnt hurt to also add in an "advanced" course where they teach you the basic dungeon rhythm and boss tells.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This is my whole problem with threads like this, people so strongly fight against the idea that we just want people to press reprisal or rampart when they are tanking, or just press stone if there is no healing needed

People would rather tie themselves up in knots attempting to justify crap behaviour then actually try to fix it

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am i just blessed with good luck? i don't notice these people. i cannot remember the last time a party i've been in has wiped due to anything other than my own mistakes, excluding enrages or dps checks. honestly, not joking, i don't see the bad players, but then again, i also play warrior specifically so i don't need to.

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Originally Posted by game_enjoyer

no, if someone not doing the mechanics is permissible than someone doing the mechanics is not "extra work" and honestly i'm beginning to believe the ytyp people don't exist because it's been 5 years and i haven't seen one.

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I think YPYT phenomena is more of a DC-specific perks, at least judging from each anecdotes I read of. JP DC has the most YPYT cases than anywhere else. (CMIIW, and above all, take this as grain of salts)

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Originally Posted by game_enjoyer

am i just blessed with good luck? i don't notice these people. i cannot remember the last time a party i've been in has wiped due to anything other than my own mistakes, excluding enrages or dps checks. honestly, not joking, i don't see the bad players, but then again, i also play warrior specifically so i don't need to.

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I mean hey, Im in the same boat as you are. I'm generally stunned to read that people here have been running frequently with poor end-game tanks. I dont want to be jerk and not say that the people posting these complaints are just lying or they're exaggerating but I swear Ive yet to run into having tanks whom fail to do their job.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

That or they reaaally need to update the Hall of Novice to better teach current roles. I get that the initial trials are made very amateurish as possible for the sake of players whom have never touched an MMO, but it wouldnt hurt to also add in an "advanced" course where they teach you the basic dungeon rhythm and boss tells.

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Even the current hall of novice isn’t actually required

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Even the current hall of novice isn’t actually required

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Yeah, I suppose they wanted to avoid "force tutorials" on players, and honestly the best way to learn how to play your role is to go on to dungeons and just do it and ask questions to your group. Its what I did but really wouldnt hurt to at least update the Hall of Novice just so players cant have an excuse to not wanting to learn how to play this video game.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Yeah, I suppose they wanted to avoid "force tutorials" on players, and honestly the best way to learn how to play your role is to go on to dungeons and just do it and ask questions to your group. Its what I did but really wouldnt hurt to at least update the Hall of Novice just so players cant have an excuse to not wanting to learn how to play this video game.

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*Every modern FF game forces me through a long tutoral*
*XIV doesn't even have the hall of novice as a requirement for anything*
That's some big brain thinkin' in SE HQ. lol

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Even the current hall of novice isn’t actually required

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Because some people dont want to do it. personally me for example, I found the whole hall of novice very very boring.

I can see how its useful but forcing it down my throat isnt something I'd want to do as a new player.

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Originally Posted by Bukachu

Because some people dont want to do it. personally me for example, I found the whole hall of novice very very boring.

I can see how its useful but forcing it down my throat isnt something I'd want to do as a new player.

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If that's how you feel, then you better know what you're doing as a new player and have put in the effort to do some research on your class and rotation on your own. And if not don't be shocked when you get a swift boot for being a hindrance to your party. You shouldn't force your bad gameplay and laziness down 7 other people's throats.

https://i.imgflip.com/6ntdte.jpg

*Only applies to dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I mean hey, Im in the same boat as you are. I'm generally stunned to read that people here have been running frequently with poor end-game tanks. I dont want to be jerk and not say that the people posting these complaints are just lying or they're exaggerating but I swear Ive yet to run into having tanks whom fail to do their job.

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In all honesty, without actually being a stats nerd and recording all my runs, as a finger in the wind measure I'd say somewhere around 2%-ish of all roulettes I do will have a tank who either 1) never once uses tank stance, 2) never mitigates, 3) never AOEs and then 1 random lunatic every couple of hundred runs who literally does all of the above + 3 other things all while (I kid you not) dressed in iLvl5 rags in a L60 dungeon. It's clearly not a sea of clowns and mostly experience bias but it's enough to make you eye the tank for that first pull each dungeon.

I agree with all of your post here, but if I can say one reason why this is happening: New people are starting with 4 expansions with 0 waiting time between them to play. If I can give 1 praise to lull periods in Final Fantasy, its that people are practicing their jobs doing whatever content to help fill for their time. I started playing late ShB and when I got up to the current content; there was still some mechanic terms that I didn't know.

I never had time to kind of explore the game and fully understand what the heck is going on. Now after I took a break, I came back with a new character and went through the story again, and then we had this looooong wait until Endwalker dropped. Me as a player has developed a lot during that waiting period. I know there are players who started from ARR, HW, SB, or ShB like myself. I am sure we don't get how some players get through so much of the game's content with so little information since we been here a lot longer.

I really did appreciate the ARR MSQ dungeon revamps because they do introduce the red tank buster icon, running from one aoe to the next, and so forth. Its a nice introduction to mechanics. They are doing the same for Heavensward soon; I truly hope they throw every kind of mechanic in there so players are getting the idea of what is happening because the NPCs are doing it.

I don't know.. I scratch my head a lot on this topic. I've been a healer main in all content including Savage. I have carried a lot of tanks through their dungeons because I just wanted to get through it without any drama. I've only left a handful of times due to reasons like these. Very rarely I would have to report for toxic behavior. I try my best not to if I can help it.

But I do agree; I think it would make the whole community happier if people know what they were doing in later content that has already rinse and repeated mechanics/methods multiple of times throughout the MSQ . SE introduces unique mechanics little at at time; but boy they still use all mechanics going back to ARR all the time. They literally beat that stuff into every player, and then challenges them to do it again in a different or a faster way.

Its baffling that people don't know some of the basic stuffs; but it happens all the time. My only say is keep trying to be helpful so proper information is being spread throughout the community, and hope that SE will keep updating their game where mechanics are naturally taught in the MSQ more often.

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Originally Posted by Breakbeat

No.

Any video game player base isn't some static thing that gains knowledge after X hours of play or X number of levels.

It gets a bit old explaining infinite cycles to people, but all I can suggest is to think deeply on this: For every expert player that retires from this game, you have one that joins with zero MMO experience. Therefore the player base is constantly morphing into something different. Always.

My dude, modern basketball has been around since something like 1890. Does that mean if you head down to the park right now, all the guys on the court should be pros? Does it even mean that the 30-year-old guy that's been shooting mediocre hoops since he was nine should be any better?

No one can assume with any degree of accuracy how another, random person will perform at any chosen sport, including video games. Not at first glance. You do some research on the person, then maybe. But not at first glance.

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OP is asking people to hold the ball with their hands, not shot a 3 pointer every time. Big difference.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Disappointing. A thread full of players bemoaning other players who may not meet their standards.
I can see why some felt the need to post threads like "I don't like the FFXIV's Community"
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...IV-s-community

However, whilst I'm not one to bemoan others for not meeting some abitary player-dictated standard (which SE themselves don't expect players to meet) I don't think I'm 'qualified' to comment since I'm the sort of player everyone here is passing judgement on: try as I might I'm just not very good at the game - I make silly mistakes too often, am slow to react to mechanics (which I don't always understand) and die more often than I should, and since have been playing for somewhere around eight months, always feel like I should be better. I do also make sure not to go anywhere near the increased difficulty content.

But I love the game all the same and the MSQ was the best gaming experience I've ever encountered. So should I just quit because I don't live up to this 'should be good by now' player-set standard? The sad thing is, I'm pretty sure that some will consider the answer to that question to be "yes". :(

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That thread is talking about you mate. The MSQ has been ruined by other players multiple time due to poor play. People hitting like wet noodles first time I had to go in Titania. Doing Endsinger wasn't filled with joy or excitement, it was pure frustration that people couldn't figure out the double planets after wiping twice to it.

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Originally Posted by Breakbeat

No.

Any video game player base isn't some static thing that gains knowledge after X hours of play or X number of levels.

It gets a bit old explaining infinite cycles to people, but all I can suggest is to think deeply on this: For every expert player that retires from this game, you have one that joins with zero MMO experience. Therefore the player base is constantly morphing into something different. Always.

My dude, modern basketball has been around since something like 1890. Does that mean if you head down to the park right now, all the guys on the court should be pros? Does it even mean that the 30-year-old guy that's been shooting mediocre hoops since he was nine should be any better?

No one can assume with any degree of accuracy how another, random person will perform at any chosen sport, including video games. Not at first glance. You do some research on the person, then maybe. But not at first glance.

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the thread isnt really about someone being bad tho.

its about someone lashing out when given tips in an online game.

Well, it's become about both really

That was the great thing about Endwalker's second trial, running it with duty support meant that the only deciding factor was the player. Clearing first try or clearing after ten tries, only up to the player. It's even okay, that this trial, has a slight redo protection. Unlike other duty support dungeons and trials in which you are the only deciding factor, and if you can't bring the minimum, you get to try it again and again and again, till you find your error. In contrast to running with other players which puts a lot less of a burden on you to actually bringing the minimum.

You show up to Ifrit severely undergreared? Duty support is not going to compensate for you not doing a third of the damage to the ball. You just unlocked a sage as your only healer and have not run this dungeon in months, well, better remember those mechanics and read (and comprehend) your tool tips, because Alisaie will only raise you once your back at the start.

Imo the best way to sort this out would be to have some form of skill based matchmaking, so casuals play with other casuals while higher skilled players can play with each other. Win win for all I think. This sort of matchmaking can be a good change for mentors too, so if you're using the mentor Crown it will match make with low skilled players, which means you can actually mentor people that don't have much of a clue about the game.

Would you run those high-skill matched dungeons and trials if they have no rewards? The low level, clueless and ignorant players are the price for the rewards. The whole reason duty finder and roulette exists is to give people doing the content someone to play with, regardless of what those players would parse at.

If you only want to do dungeons with players of sufficiently high skill, use party finder and set your own rules.

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regardless of what those players would parse at.

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Thank you for confirming that dps meters are abused and used to discriminate.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Thank you for confirming that dps meters are abused and used to discriminate.

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That's what they are asking for, that the game parse all players and then sorts them as high-skill or low-skill for match making.

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

Would you run those high-skill matched dungeons and trials if they have no rewards? The low level, clueless and ignorant players are the price for the rewards. The whole reason duty finder and roulette exists is to give people doing the content someone to play with, regardless of what those players would parse at.

If you only want to do dungeons with players of sufficiently high skill, use party finder and set your own rules.

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Sorry but I run roulettes for the tangible rewards, not for the "reward" of playing with others especially if they have no clue in how to play. Sorry but I don't play to carry people, plus there's plenty of casuals that can fill those spots.
To answer your first question, no I wouldn't, I already have to put up with casual, YPYT, cure only healers an the myriad other types of bad players for a small reward, why would I put myself through that for nothing?.
Talking as if skill based matchmaking would stop new and bad players from getting quick queues lmao, most skilled players don't even run roulettes often, I only do 3 of them myself and usually I go with other people so your whole "The low level, clueless and ignorant players are the price for the rewards." point is moot anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

Would you run those high-skill matched dungeons and trials if they have no rewards? The low level, clueless and ignorant players are the price for the rewards. The whole reason duty finder and roulette exists is to give people doing the content someone to play with, regardless of what those players would parse at.

If you only want to do dungeons with players of sufficiently high skill, use party finder and set your own rules.

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Or how about and let’s circle round to the original point, players who are so bad they make other players experience worse either learn how to play at a basic level or do it with trusts

I shouldn’t have to party finder dead ends so I get people who know how to play the game at a level that has been taught to you for 90 levels at that point

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Originally Posted by Iustitia-sama

Sorry but I run roulettes for the tangible rewards, not for the "reward" of playing with others especially if they have no clue in how to play. Sorry but I don't play to carry people, plus there's plenty of casuals that can fill those spots.
To answer your first question, no I wouldn't, I already have to put up with casual, YPYT, cure only healers an the myriad other types of bad players for a small reward, why would I put myself through that for nothing?.

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Exactly, you run the roulette for the rewards. The price for getting those rewards are random players.

And? how does that invalidate skill based matchmaking? I would still be matched with random players, just the random players would be around my skill level, so what is your actual point?

Let's face it, skill based matchmaking will never happen because then all the bad players would only get matched with bad players. Their runs taking 30+ minutes suddenly and they'd all blame eachother claiming they aren't the issue.

They'd then come to the forums to vehemently argue against any sort of skill based matchmaking because just like the current people that defend it - getting a free meal and a free ride off good players is more important to them than anyone else's enjoyment.

Also sadly PF doesn't work. Delebrum Reginae proved that even when players tried to do that back when the content was popular, the rats just slowly shifted to using PF as word of mouth spread. The moment high skill PF becomes the option, bad players will go there 'because they want faster and easier runs and deserve it'

That it would not be in the game's interest to match you with the newbie that is great at playing the game and already can do a lot more than the minimum requirements. It would be in the game's interest to match you with players who are deficient, so that the average skill level and duty completion time stays the same.

If you don't like to do Dead End with bad players, you have the same option the bad player has, duty support.

You do what the game wants so you get the rewards, you wouldn't do it if it didn't give you the rewards. You can of course decide that the rewards aren't worth the inconvenience you are incurring in which case the scale of duty completion might tip into a direction for Square Enix to take action.

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Originally Posted by Gararr

Let's face it, skill based matchmaking will never happen because then all the bad players would only get matched with bad players. Their runs taking 30+ minutes suddenly and they'd all blame eachother claiming they aren't the issue.

They'd then come to the forums to vehemently argue against any sort of skill based matchmaking because just like the current people that defend it - getting a free meal and a free ride off good players is more important to them than anyone else's enjoyment.

Also sadly PF doesn't work. Delebrum Reginae proved that even when players tried to do that back when the content was popular, the rats just slowly shifted to using PF as word of mouth spread. The moment high skill PF becomes the option, bad players will go there 'because they want faster and easier runs and deserve it'

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Unfortunately this is true, theres alot of reply's in this thread from those sort of people too.

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

That it would not be in the game's interest to match you with the newbie that is great at playing the game and already can do a lot more than the minimum requirements. It would be in the game's interest to match you with players who are deficient, so that the average skill level and duty completion time stays the same.

If you don't like to do Dead End with bad players, you have the same option the bad player has, duty support.

You do what the game wants so you get the rewards, you wouldn't do it if it didn't give you the rewards. You can of course decide that the rewards aren't worth the inconvenience you are incurring in which case the scale of duty completion might tip into a direction for Square Enix to take action.

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Nope I also have the option of playing with competent friends, so I don't have to play with low skilled people that take away my enjoyment of the game, and no offense but you sound like one those.

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Originally Posted by Iustitia-sama

Nope I also have the option of playing with competent friends, so I don't have to play with low skilled people that take away my enjoyment of the game, and no offense but you sound like one those.

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I hate the "use the trusts" response because for any skilled player trusts are objectively aweful. They literally do LESS damage if you perform your job.

Trusts aren't for skilled players. They're there for story, immersion, lore and when you want to play alone. If SE makes them scale to the skill of the player instead of dragging the player down it might be possible to see more use in them.

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Originally Posted by Iustitia-sama

Imo the best way to sort this out would be to have some form of skill based matchmaking, so casuals play with other casuals while higher skilled players can play with each other. Win win for all I think. This sort of matchmaking can be a good change for mentors too, so if you're using the mentor Crown it will match make with low skilled players, which means you can actually mentor people that don't have much of a clue about the game.

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Might sound crazy, but you can make 3 friends (impossible challenge) and run with them if you're that concerned about other peoples skill level kekw

Now if only some ppl would put as much effort into learning the bare basics of gameplay that they do coming to the forums and composing long, drawn out excuses on why they shouldn't have to put effort into anything in the actual game lol

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Originally Posted by Gararr

I hate the "use the trusts" response because for any skilled player trusts are objectively aweful. They literally do LESS damage if you perform your job.

Trusts aren't for skilled players. They're there for story, immersion, lore and when you want to play alone. If SE makes them scale to the skill of the player instead of dragging the player down it might be possible to see more use in them.

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To be honest sometimes using trusts is quicker than with actual players that don't know how to press buttons, but I only use them for the first time doing the dungeon if my friends aren't online. I still think that skill based matchmaking is a good thing, as it means lower skilled players will have to learn how to play rather than getting carried, and if you don't want to learn to play then 30+ min dungeons are the consequences of your own actions.
Another thing is that mentors will actually have the job of mentoring as they will be put in lower skilled matchmaking, so they can, you know, actually mentor people. I don't mean in just mentor roulette, as long as you wear the crown you will have mentor matchmaking.